--- Log opened Sun Oct 01 00:00:27 2006
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01:24 < Trevize> Hi
01:24 < Wombert> welcome
01:25 < Trevize> What happened to Mojavi? Is it dead?
01:25 < Wombert> yep
01:25 < Trevize> That's weird...
01:25 < Trevize> In which version did Agavi fork off Mojavi?
01:26 < Wombert> last 3.0-dev revision
01:26 < CIA-1> david * r1069 /trunk/src/filter/AgaviFormPopulationFilter.class.php: FormPopulationFilter: implemented remaining items 3 and 6: support for skipping re-population of certain fields and full support for [] fields (i.e. fields with auto-generated indices). closes #327
01:26 < Wombert> but agavi 0.11 is very different
01:26 < Wombert> give it a shot ;)
01:26 < Wombert> but do not use 0.10.2 from the website
01:26 < Wombert> use SVN instead
01:26 < Wombert> trunk is stable enough for produciton
01:26 < Wombert> a release is imminent, too
01:26 < Wombert> we have many exciting new feature
01:26 < Wombert> s
01:26 < Trevize> A possible employer told me they are working with Mojavi 2.0, and he told me to install it as homework..
01:26 < Wombert> mojavi2?
01:26 < Wombert> oO
01:27 < Wombert> that's php4
01:27 < Trevize> Yes. Maybe I should worry that they are staying in the past?
01:27 < Wombert> well
01:27 < Wombert> it's your decision
01:28 < Wombert> if you ask me, I would prefer _not_ to have a job where I have to code PHP4
01:28 < Wombert> because it's a real pain in the arse ;)
01:28 < Wombert> outdated technology never is a good idea
01:28 < Trevize> My current work is like that.. hmm.. you mean it's bad because of the object oriented problem?
01:28 < Wombert> remember that PHP5 has been stable for two years now
01:28 < Wombert> in the IT world, that's... a very, very long time
01:29 < Wombert> yes, partly because the OO is very messy
01:29 < Wombert> PHP5 certainly allows for cleaner code
01:29 < Trevize> Bah. Many hosting sites don't even have MySQL 4.1
01:29 < Trevize> Even that it's been stable for 2 years as well
01:29 < Wombert> think abstract classes, type hints in declarations, interfaces, iterators etc etc
01:29 < Wombert> yes, but then, most client projects don't run on shared hosts ;)
01:30 < Wombert> if a client can afford hiring a company to develop an application, they can also afford <100 dollars a month for a dedicated server
01:30 < Wombert> let me put it this way
01:30 < Wombert> if you get a job where you may code PHP5
01:30 < Wombert> AND
01:30 < Wombert> use agavi
01:30 < Wombert> it's gonna be absolute heaven
01:30 < Wombert> if not, your mileage may vary
01:31 < Wombert> ;)
01:32 < Trevize> I can't be very picky. I'm kinda desperate - or maybe I shouldn't be?
01:32 < Wombert> we have a very nice routing (a _lot_ better than the solutions other frameworks offer), good security, full i18n based on the entire unicode CLDR data (that means you can format dates, and the month names will be in hebrew automatically; also, you can fetch a list of languages, countries, regions etc in hebrew etc etc etc), a nice filter concept, good performance, sweet stuff such as auto form-repopulation etc
01:32 < Wombert> hmm
01:32 < Wombert> well
01:32 < Wombert> _are_ you desperate?
01:32 < Wombert> I'm not sure what the job market looks like in israel
01:33 < Wombert> you're from israel, aren't you?
01:33 < Trevize> Sort of. I'm 30 and still living with my parents
01:33 < Trevize> Yup, I'm from Israel
01:33 < Trevize> And I love UTF-8.
01:33 < Wombert> that's good
01:33 < Wombert> because we support it from A to Z
01:33 < Wombert> but let's focus on your job issue thing first
01:34 < Wombert> so you have a job right now?
01:34 < Wombert> but it sucks?
01:35 < Trevize> Yup
01:35 < Trevize> I work from home
01:35 < Wombert> but not self-employed?
01:36 < Wombert> did you consider moving to another country or so?
01:36 < Wombert> I heard jake's company needs programmers ;)
01:36 < Wombert> but they are in Seattle, US
01:36 < Trevize> If they send me a flying ticket, maybe
01:36 < Trevize> but I'm addicted to Israeli folk dnces
01:36 < Wombert> lol :>
01:37 < Wombert> well let's focus on israel then
01:37 < Trevize> dances
01:37 < Trevize> so it's a problem
01:37 < Wombert> how
01:37 < Wombert> I mean
01:37 < Trevize> Even that there are good Israeli folk dances in NYC
01:37 < Wombert> aren't there many job opportunities?
01:37 < Trevize> Not in PHP, I'm afraid
01:37 < Wombert> oO
01:37 < Wombert> what's popular then?
01:38 < Wombert> java?
01:38 < Trevize> Java and .NET
01:38 < Wombert> you could certainly learn java in no time
01:38 < Wombert> it's not much different from PHP
01:38 < Wombert> a week and you know your way around the code
01:38 < Trevize> I think .NET is more popuplar
01:38 < Trevize> popular
01:39 < Wombert> after all, you're a programmer, you know how to code already, and a language is just the "tool" to make stuff work the way your brain wants it
01:39 < Wombert> do you have a university degree or so?
01:39 < Trevize> Not yet
01:39 < Trevize> I plan to, some day
01:39 < Wombert> so you're a student?
01:39 < Wombert> hmm
01:39 < Trevize> Actually I tried learning computer science, but the math killed me
01:40 < Wombert> yes, the CS maths sucks big time
01:40 < impl> Ooh, I want some partial differential equations
01:40 < Trevize> God curse Infinitesimal math
01:41 < Wombert> impl: yuck
01:41 < Trevize> So.. what I plan to do is just to try learn .NET alone
01:42 < Wombert> Trevize: my advice would be to expand your field of knowledge
01:42 < Wombert> that would include learning another language or two
01:42 < Wombert> or, even better, study CS
01:42 < Wombert> where the latter implies the former anyway, so that might be the way to go
01:43 < Trevize> Studying CS takes at least 3 years
01:43 < Trevize> I need a job now..
01:43 < Wombert> if not, and if you can't get another job, take the mojavi2 job now
01:43 < Wombert> http://mojavi.net/
01:43 < Trevize> ... which is down. :*(
01:43 < Wombert> no
01:43 < Wombert> click the link ;)
01:44 < Trevize> oh right. .net
01:44 < Wombert> it's a japanese site and they still have mojavi 2.0.3b2
01:44 < Wombert> and no "www" ;>
01:44 < Wombert> once you have the job, you can try to convince your company to switch to PHP5+agavi
01:44 < Wombert> an enterprise framework saves trouble and money ;)
01:45 < Trevize> Why did Mojavi die? Is there any news article about it?
01:45 < Wombert> for example, you write the code to list all products _once_ and then you can deliver it as HTML, RSS, SOAP, whatever you want
01:45 < Wombert> well
01:45 < Wombert> first of all, the development wasn't "open"
01:45 < Wombert> a single person (Sean Kerr) developed it alone
01:45 < Wombert> people had few insight on what was going on etc
01:46 < Wombert> he eventually gave up and handed the project to another bloke called "illusina" (don't remember his real name)
01:46 < Trevize> Sounds like a feminine handle
01:46 < Wombert> he worked on mojavi4, but then the web server crashed, all data was lost and he abandoned the project again
01:46 < Wombert> nah he was male
01:46 < Trevize> Ha, no backups?
01:46 < Wombert> mojavi3 was never released
01:46 < Wombert> nope
01:47 < Wombert> agavi is a fork of mojavi, but it's very different from the original
01:49 * Trevize tries to install the old Mojavi
01:50 < Trevize> There doesn't seem to be an INSTALL file. So what, I should like just extract it under htdocs?
01:50 < impl> Trevize: Do you have 2.0.2?
01:51 < impl> If not I can send it to you
01:51 < Trevize> impl: Yup. The one from the Japanese site
01:51 < Wombert> Trevize: I'm afraid I don't know _anything_ about M2, so I can't help you
01:51 < impl> There's a Japanese site? :s
01:51 < Wombert> http://mojavi.net
01:51 < impl> Whoa
01:51 < impl> WEIRD
01:53 < Trevize> No documentation there
01:53 < Trevize> uffff
01:53 < impl> Trevize: index.php goes in your public html directory
01:54 < impl> Trevize: The other files can go anywhere on your filesystem you can access
01:54 < impl> config.php is in your webapp dir
01:54 < impl> You need to customize it to your liking
01:54 < impl> And include that config.php from your [public index.php
01:54 < impl> s/[//
01:54 < Trevize> can I put it in a subdirectory?
01:55 < impl> Sure
01:55 < Trevize> (index.php)
02:00 < Trevize> Customizing now
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02:07 < Trevize> What's the "all in one class file"? I am supposed to include it in config.php
02:18 < impl> Trevize: It's just the contents of the lib/ directory all packed into one file
02:19 < impl> optimization, basically
02:19 < Trevize> I think it's supposed to be mojavi-all-classes.php
02:21 < Trevize> Ok. Now I'm getting FATAL [C:\Program Files\Apache Group\Apache\htdocs\mojavi\mojavi-all-classes.php:1391] Invalid configuration setting(s): ERROR_404_MODULE (Default) or ERROR_404_ACTION (PageNotFound)
02:25 < impl> That means the PageNotFound action doesn't exist
02:27 < Trevize> I chaned the PageNotFound action to "default", and now it gives me a similar error
02:29 < Trevize> "Default", more precisely
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03:31 < Trevize> Thanks for all the help
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05:36 < CIA-1> dominik * r1070 /trunk/src/translation/AgaviLocale.class.php: make the locale work with the format returned by the ldml config handler
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07:08 < CIA-1> dominik * r1071 /trunk/src/translation/data/ (406 files in 2 dirs): cldr data release 1.4
07:09 < CIA-1> dominik * r1072 /trunk/src/translation/data/locales/__test.xml: this doesn't belong to here
07:09 < CIA-1> dominik * r1073 /trunk/src/core/Agavi.class.php: new core.cldr_dir setting
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07:19 < CIA-1> dominik * r1074 /trunk/src/config/ (3 files in 2 dirs): cldr supplemental data config handler
08:14 < CIA-1> david * r1075 /trunk/ (12 files in 8 dirs):
08:14 < CIA-1> made it possible to still modify the response after redirecting by using the
08:14 < CIA-1> Response instance returned by Controller::redirect(). Threw out the 'dirty' flag
08:14 < CIA-1> from Response. All Controllers (must) have a redirect() now. Sort of refs #184
08:41 < CIA-1> dominik * r1076 /trunk/src/util/AgaviDecimalFormatter.class.php: fix handling of currency symbol char in utf8
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09:22 < raidman> morning #agavi
09:25 < Wombert> hi :)
09:29 < raidman> :)
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12:18 < shoan_> Wombert: you there?
12:19 -!- shoan_ is now known as shoan
12:19 < shoan> anybody using apc?
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14:07 < digitarald> More and more i18n ... i love agavi :)
14:09 < digitarald> when u need mojavi documentation: http://www.peterrobins.co.uk/it/mojavi/tutorial1.htm
14:40 < raidman> I wonder how can I freez hell?
14:40 < raidman> the hell!
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17:17 < Wombert> re
17:17 < Wombert> shoan: ?
17:17 < Wombert> digitarald: ?
17:57 < digitarald> here
18:12 < Wombert> digitarald: http://trac.agavi.org/trac.cgi/changeset/1075
18:36 < digitarald> oh nice, the cookie solution
18:38 < Wombert> yes
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19:44 < CIA-1> dominik * r1077 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): more locale handling stuff
19:44 < CIA-1> dominik * r1078 /trunk/src/config/AgaviLdmlConfigHandler.class.php: remove debug output
19:44 < splatch`> hello all!
19:44 < CIA-1> dominik * r1079 /trunk/src/translation/AgaviCurrencyFormatter.class.php: use new locale method names
19:44 < Wombert> splatch`: hi
19:45 < Wombert> btw did you talk to your designer friend yet? :)
19:46 < splatch`> Wombert: they haven't free tame
19:46 < splatch`> He looking for a new job
19:48 < splatch`> Wombert: i have news :)
19:48 < splatch`> they'll made something in this week
19:50 < Wombert> oo
19:50 < Wombert> :>>>
19:50 < Wombert> cool
19:50 < splatch`> :]
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20:41 < CIA-1> david * r1080 /trunk/ (5 files): updated licensing and copyright information
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20:44 < Wombert> hey jake
20:44 < Wombert> I improved the redirect stuff a bit
20:44 < Wombert> I'm afraid I still haven't found a proper solution to allow multiple forwards
20:45 < Wombert> err
20:45 < Wombert> redirects, I mean
20:45 < splatch`> when forum will start? :)
21:00 < jake> thanks for looking into it Wombert
21:08 < Wombert> jake: the problem is that I still have to lock the response so no unwanted output arrives together with the forward, such as a comment by ExecutionTimeFilter etc
21:09 < Wombert> I now changed it so you can at least still modify the response and set a cookie, for example
21:09 < Wombert> http://trac.agavi.org/trac.cgi/changeset/1075
21:10 < Wombert> are you using agavi-trunk in development yet?
21:13 < jake> not yet, no
21:13 < Wombert> i18n is almost complete btw
21:13 < jake> reading the diff now
21:13 < Wombert> $req->setLocale('en_US@currency=EUR'); etc
21:14 < Wombert> we're still doing some testing and stuff, but so far, most things work pretty well
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21:15 < Wombert> oh and
21:15 < Wombert> I'm looking into adding SOAP and XMLRPC support right now
21:22 < CIA-1> david * r1081 /trunk/LICENSE: fixed license file info
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21:43 < CIA-1> dominik * r1082 /trunk/src/translation/ (6 files): added phpdocs
22:06 < CIA-1> david * r1083 /trunk/ (COPYRIGHT INSTALL LICENSE docs/docbook/manual.xml): INSTALL, LICENSE, COPYRIGHT and docs update
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23:07 < splatch`> Wombert?
23:07 < splatch`> Einloggen? :D
23:22 < splatch`> anyone online?
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--- Day changed Mon Oct 02 2006
00:04 < CIA-1> dominik * r1084 /trunk/API_CHANGELOG: this should be basicly all changes now
00:09 < CIA-1> dominik * r1085 /trunk/src/action/AgaviActionStackEntry.class.php: phpdoc fixes
00:38 < CIA-1> david * r1086 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 3 dirs): cleanup and type hint fixes
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01:04 < Wombert> jake: so did you hire sean?
01:04 < Wombert> or is he still unable to move to seattle
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01:13 < CIA-1> david * r1087 /trunk/ (samples/pub/index.php src/logging/AgaviMessage.class.php): phpdoc fixes, removed log() method in AgaviMessage
01:14 < CIA-1> david * r1088 /trunk/samples/pub/index.php: oops
01:32 < jake> Yeah, he can't move to Seattle until December, so we're going to look at things again then
01:32 < Wombert> hmmh
01:32 < Wombert> jake: need your advice
01:32 < Wombert> should we drop initialize()
01:32 < Wombert> and use constructors everywhere
01:32 < Wombert> I talked to sean the other day why he used initialize() instead of constructors and he was like "I have no idea"
01:33 < jake> heh
01:33 < jake> I actually can see a reason
01:33 < Wombert> really?
01:33 < Wombert> shoot
01:33 < jake> I think we should keep 'initialize'
01:33 < jake> for this reason; you may want to instantiate an action without having it run it's setup (perhaps for unit testing, pre loading, etc)
01:33 < jake> er, 'its' not it's
01:34 < Wombert> mmmh
01:34 < Wombert> that's a rather good point actually
01:35 < impl> It's also nice to have the ability to separate the setup into two pieces
01:35 < jake> Yeah, I think so. I still use the constructor, to do things that aren't environment specific
01:35 < impl> $o = new something(); /* do more stuff */ $o->initialize();
01:35 < jake> But initialize tends to fetch things from the request object and such
01:35 < jake> yeah, exactly
01:36 < Wombert> guys
01:36 < Wombert> I have to say
01:36 < Wombert> your input was very valuable
01:36 < impl> If you were feeling European you could change it to initialise() though :P
01:36 < Wombert> as usual, I'm glad I ask
01:36 < Wombert> ed
01:36 * Wombert goes find teh big revert button
01:37 < impl> hehe
01:37 < jake> no problem Wombert, we appreciate the asking :)
01:37 < Wombert> speaking of which
01:37 < impl> I'm still working on a solution to slots, I really am
01:37 < Wombert> did you ask your boss to sponsor a trip to europe yet?
01:37 < Wombert> impl: good, good ;)
01:37 < impl> I had a good idea this morning... gonna see how well it works on paper
01:37 < jake> Yeah, I'll know tomorrow
01:37 < impl> I need paper I can write on in the shower
01:37 < impl> :<
01:37 < Wombert> jake: w00t nice
01:38 < Wombert> funny
01:38 < Wombert> I always get the best ideas when I'm in the shower, too
01:38 < Wombert> I always feel a bit embarrassed because that's very geek style
01:38 < Wombert> you know
01:39 < Wombert> thinking about programming when in the shower and all
01:39 < Wombert> mmhmmm
01:39 < impl> Well what else are you supposed to do? :P
01:39 < Wombert> mmmh
01:39 < Wombert> true
01:39 < Wombert> I just wonder what regular people do in the shower
01:39 * Wombert falls over
01:40 < impl> hehe
01:40 < impl> Okay, so here's what I was thinking
01:40 < impl> We take slots out of the view completely and move them into the template
01:40 < impl> So you have a template class
01:40 < impl> And it's just a matter of $template->insert('Module', 'Action');
01:41 < impl> Of course that would only work the PHP renderer
01:41 < impl> But we could extend other templating engines...
01:41 < Wombert> how exactly is that different from the current solution
01:41 < Wombert> I mean
01:42 < Wombert> it makes no difference whether you do it in the template or in the view
01:42 < Wombert> in fact, the template is an element of the view from an MVC standpoint
01:42 < jake> Is there really a benefit to slots? It seems like you can accomplish the same thing by; using the actionchain, rendering to a variable, and displaying how you want
01:42 < Wombert> jake: the thing about the action chain is
01:42 < Wombert> ehm
01:42 < Wombert> I never used M2 but
01:43 < jake> sorry if that's a dumb suggestion, but that's how we accomplished the same thing with m2
01:43 < Wombert> you called the next element in the chain from your action, right?
01:43 < impl> I have to look at actionchains again
01:43 < impl> They confused me greatly the last time I used them
01:43 < Wombert> the thing is
01:43 < Wombert> that slots are always presentational
01:43 < Wombert> they serve no business logic purpose
01:44 < impl> What if you want to call an action within an action just to execute logic?
01:44 < Wombert> so letting your logic (action) decide what slots to run (presentation) is a pretty bad idea
01:44 < jake> There's still some business logic. What to retrieve from the database for display, for instance
01:44 < Wombert> let's say your app has a web interface plus a soap interface
01:44 < Wombert> you then need a view
01:44 < Wombert> because only in the web interface you want to display the slots
01:45 < Wombert> you could of course put some logic into the action then to decide which context or even output type you're serving but
01:45 < Wombert> things get extraordinarily messy then
01:45 < jake> Sure. But that's a different issue. I would create a filter called 'SlotsFilter', which only gets executed in the appropriate context (web)
01:45 < Wombert> what about different output types inside a context
01:46 < Wombert> html, pdf, json are all "web"
01:46 < jake> Sure, but they're just different renderings. Executing the actions would allow for that
01:46 < jake> I'm just trying to understand the _intended_ purpose of slots
01:47 < jake> Because it really seems like a 'trimmed' down version of actions/views (with very little happening in the action)
01:47 < Wombert> actually
01:47 < Wombert> slots are just a normal action/view/template combo
01:48 < jake> yeah, I thought so too. Then why can't slots be accomplished with a modified actionchain?
01:48 < Wombert> how does this action chain stuff work
01:48 < Wombert> I'm sorry, I never used M2
01:48 < jake> Do you have a copy of M2 anywhere?
01:48 < impl> I can pastebin ActionChain.class.php
01:48 < impl> if you want
01:49 * Wombert goes download
01:49 < Wombert> now I have it
01:49 < Wombert> shoot
01:49 < jake> The actionchain is also how we do 'localized' application controllers in m2, besides the code being inefficient, it's very handy
01:49 < impl> jake: iirc (and I haven't used M2 in ages), with actionchains you just instantiated them manually right?
01:50 < jake> no
01:50 < Wombert> can you give me a quick example of how the action chain is used then?
01:50 < impl> $chain = new ActionChain(); $chain->register(...); $chain->register(...); $chain->execute(); ?
01:50 < jake> you do $ac->register('Name', 'Module', 'Action', array('parameters')
01:50 < jake> yeah, exactly impl
01:50 < Wombert> okay
01:50 < Wombert> butz
01:50 < Wombert> uhm
01:50 < jake> then you use fetchResult('Name') to retrieve the rendered result
01:50 < Wombert> doesn't that mean you must know what to register _before_ you run it
01:51 < jake> Of course
01:51 < Wombert> or can you create a _new_ action chain whenever you want
01:51 < Wombert> and run that
01:51 < jake> yeah, you can do that
01:51 < Wombert> e.g. in your view?
01:51 < Wombert> oh
01:51 < Wombert> that's pretty sweet actually
01:51 < jake> yep, wherever you want
01:51 * Wombert thinks about that
01:51 < impl> I used actionchains in the action and then saved them in $request
01:51 < impl> I don't know why, but that's what I did
01:51 < impl> :\
01:51 < Wombert> okay and
01:51 < Wombert> when is the rendering done?
01:51 < jake> Yeah. So we use the Controller class as a front-web controller, and then the action chain allows us to have an application-controller as well
01:51 < Wombert> i.e. where do you assemble the output
01:52 < impl> Wombert: In M2 the renderer was independent of the view
01:52 < impl> So inside View::execute() you'd just say $renderer = new Renderer(); $renderer->setAttribute(...);
01:52 < impl> And stick the output of the actionchain in there
01:52 < impl> Then you returned the renderer, I think
01:52 * impl doesn't remember exactly now
01:53 < jake> you could do that. Or, just do in the view or filter or whatever; $renderer->setAttribute('ThingFromOtherAction', $ac->fetchResult('OtherActionName'))
01:53 < jake> You're right about the view impl
01:53 < Wombert> I see
01:53 < Wombert> and at what point was the template rendered
01:53 < Wombert> and output sent back?
01:54 < impl> Wombert: Let me show you an example from an old app I wrote
01:54 < jake> it's up to you. The content is _rendered_ when you call $ac->execute()
01:54 < jake> but it's displayed whenever you decide to display it
01:54 < impl> Wombert: http://pastebin.ca/188248
02:01 < Wombert> oO
02:02 < Wombert> hmmh
02:02 < Wombert> $controller->dispatch();
02:02 < Wombert> is in the sample index.php
02:02 < Wombert> and at what point is the output sent back
02:02 < Wombert> can't findit
02:03 < Wombert> aaaah
02:03 < Wombert> okay
02:03 < jake> it's not relevant to this discussion. the action chain returns the rendered output in variables, which you can then do what you want with, including outputting them
02:03 < Wombert> it renders that right away because the mode is RENDER_CLIENT
02:03 < Wombert> but if you create a chain
02:03 < Wombert> it's RENDER_VAR
02:03 < Wombert> so you can fetch it
02:03 < Wombert> got it
02:03 < jake> yep, exactly
02:03 < Wombert> jake: yeah I got that I just wondered how the _first_ output (i.e. that of the requested action) is returned
02:04 < Wombert> http://feeds.autoblog.com/~r/weblogsinc/autoblog/~3/30758893/ mmmmh said news and I thought I'd get rich in time to afford one before they stop building them ;)))
02:04 < Wombert> -said+sad
02:10 < Wombert> these existing SOAP and XMLRPC implementations are really frustrating
02:10 < Wombert> they all require you to set up the functions you want to serve beforehand
02:10 < Wombert> I want to use our routing for that
02:10 < Wombert> mmmm000h
02:10 < jake> yeah, we came up with a nice dynamic way to do it though with agavi
02:11 < jake> it didn't require routing either (which wasn't available in the version of agavi we were using)
02:12 < Wombert> I thought about in dispatch() open the SOAP request, check which method it is, register that, __call() will handle the actual forward() call
02:12 < Wombert> is that about what you do?
02:12 < Wombert> I'm not really in the mood to write a full SOAP and XMLRPC server implementation
02:12 < Wombert> so I guess I gotta resort to cheating a bit
02:13 < jake> heh, you don't have to. let me look at code quickly
02:19 < Wombert> thanks
02:20 < jake> So, for Xmlrpc and Soap, I have a controller, request, view and exception class
02:20 < jake> I used the xmlrpc extension, which supports soap 1.1 and xmlrpc
02:21 < jake> The exception knows how to display exceptions appropriately and the xmlrpc and soap controllers make extensive use of them
02:23 < Wombert> okay
02:23 < jake> The request object uses xmlrpc_decode_request and overrides the appropriate methods to set parameters as appropriate
02:24 < jake> the controller doesn't do much except for override dispatch and ensure that we use the appropriate exception types
02:26 < Wombert> aaah
02:26 < Wombert> so you're not using xmlrpc_server_call_method ?
02:26 < jake> then in the XMLRPC/SOAP templates, they do SoapView::output($some_variables), that just does xmlrpc_encode_request
02:26 < jake> Nope, they're not useful in this context
02:26 < jake> The view thing I just said is a hack, but the correct solution is obvious (I think)
02:27 < jake> The 'modern' php implementations for soap and xmlrpc completely suck. In an application like agavi, it's best to just use them for encoding and decoding, not for anything else (like callbacks)
02:28 < Wombert> you know
02:29 < Wombert> I'm surprised that this OO SOAP extension
02:29 < Wombert> doesn't allow to blindly call
02:29 < Wombert> where I could then throw an exception if the method wasn't found or so
02:29 < jake> it blows, it's not really OO. The approach I took started by overriding methods in the OO SOAP extension, but it only supports soap. At least the xmlrpc extension supports xmlrpc and soap 1.1
02:30 < Wombert> interesting
02:30 < Wombert> I planned to support several implementations tho
02:30 < Wombert> because otherwise people will come here and whine about how FubarSoap is better than SnafuSoap
02:30 < Wombert> so I gotta see how to integrate this with the routing
02:30 < jake> You can support as many as you want to. What you're doing is creating a reference implementation
02:30 < Wombert> because we need the ability to define the request method
02:31 < Wombert> e.g. modifying a product is POST => "write"
02:31 < Wombert> getting a list of products is GET => "read"
02:31 < Wombert> and SOAP is always POST
02:32 < Wombert> it's not a _huge_ deal, more like a minor glitch
02:32 < Wombert> still, being able to use the routing to map methods to actions will be nice
02:32 < jake> XMLRPC is always post as well
02:32 < Wombert> yeah
02:34 < Wombert> I'm not toooo familiar with this stuff, so I guess I'll go ahead and implement something and let you and others have a look at it then ;)
02:34 < Wombert> obviously, there will be some interesting situations
02:34 < Wombert> but that's what I want
02:35 < Wombert> that's why I do it now, and not after 0.11
02:35 < Wombert> I want to see, for instance, if the response architecture can really handle this
02:35 < Wombert> where we just set some variables that will later be encoded for XMLRPC etc
02:36 < impl> How is the locale/internationalization support going?
02:36 < Wombert> very good
02:36 < Wombert> actually, it's pretty complete
02:36 < Wombert> at least dominik says so
02:37 < Wombert> we can parse all the CLDR data already
02:37 < Wombert> and it's used, of course
02:37 < impl> Cool
02:37 < Wombert> the only things missing is date formatting and related stuff
02:37 < Wombert> like timezones
02:37 < Wombert> we'll use the olson database for that, by the way
02:37 < Wombert> so you always have accurate DST info, too
02:38 < Wombert> but the other stuff should work already
02:38 < impl> :D
02:38 < Wombert> e.g. $req->setLocale('en_US');
02:39 < Wombert> $tm->_c(23);
02:40 < Wombert> will yield "US$23.00"
02:40 < Wombert> $req->setLocale('de_DE');
02:40 < Wombert> $tm->_c(23);
02:40 < Wombert> will result in "23,00 €"
02:40 < Wombert> and
02:40 < Wombert> $req->setLocale('en_US@currency=EUR');
02:40 < Wombert> will give "€23.00"
02:41 < Wombert> it's pretty un-tested currently
02:41 < Wombert> i.e. no clue if the translators work etc (there's a GettextTranslator)
02:43 < Wombert> and you have to write a simple callback for the routing to set the language based on the locale etc
02:43 < Wombert> note that if you register en_US as available
02:43 < Wombert> you can still simply set "en"
02:43 < Wombert> that'll pick en_US then
02:44 < Wombert> stuff that is interesting for you right now would certainly be $locale->getLanguages()
02:44 < Wombert> and
02:44 < Wombert> errr
02:44 < Wombert> getTerritories()
02:47 < Wombert> note that getTerritories() returns not only countries (two letters) but also geographic regions (three digits)
02:47 < Wombert> all in the locale's language, of course
02:48 < Wombert> you can get calendar names
02:48 < Wombert> calendar info
02:48 < Wombert> script names
02:48 < Wombert> currencies
02:48 < Wombert> everything
02:49 < impl> Cool
03:16 < Wombert> l8rs
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06:41 < ttj> Huomen.
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08:54 < raidman> morning
09:02 < v-dogg> huomenta
09:09 < splatch`> *zieaf*
09:10 < splatch`> hello :]
09:11 < raidman> splatch`, zieaf == morning?
09:12 < splatch`> zief = yawn
09:12 < splatch`> morning = rano
09:12 < splatch`> good-morning = dzien dobry
09:12 < splatch`> we have one version of "good day" ;]
09:13 < raidman> dzien dobry
09:13 < splatch`> on night = dobry wieczor (good night)
09:13 < splatch`> raidman: dzien dobry! :)
09:13 < raidman> do good == dobry
09:13 < raidman> so
09:15 < splatch`> raidman: yes
09:15 < splatch`> raidman: short version it's dobry
09:15 < splatch`> short version of "dzien dobry" :)
09:15 < splatch`> hm.. like morning?
09:16 < raidman> and what's rano?
09:18 < splatch`> raidman: rano minds morn
09:18 < raidman> okey :)
09:18 < splatch`> raidman: simple, not like in english ;)))
09:19 < raidman> yeah ;)
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09:55 < v-dogg> morning germys
10:03 < Wombert> :> hi
10:03 < eremit> morning ...
10:04 < Wombert> following change proposal
10:04 < Wombert> validators get a new sub-tag for specifying input data
10:04 < Wombert> i.e. not in parameters anymore
10:05 < Wombert>
10:05 < Wombert> []
10:05 < Wombert>
10:05 < Wombert> that would be a non-named argument
10:05 < Wombert> more of them could, of course, have a "name" or "for" attribute
10:05 < Wombert> question: which name for that
10:05 < Wombert> "arguments" or "inputs" or what
10:05 < Wombert> "parameters" is, obviously, already taken ;)
10:07 < raidman> Wombert, eremit hi
10:07 < eremit> hi raidman ...
10:08 < raidman> I like parameters
10:08 * eremit gets some coffee and tries to understand wombert ...
10:08 < eremit> if i got everything right ... i would vote for inputs ...
10:09 < raidman> I like parameters because we use setParameters , get... and so in code
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10:10 < raidman> but I think about naming convention for unvalidated (unsafe) parameters
10:11 < Wombert> parameters are stupid
10:11 < Wombert> because they contain the names of the input params to validate
10:11 < Wombert> and configuration options for the validator
10:11 < Wombert> plus the base attribute is in the validator tag and thus has no logical relation to the input param configuration
10:25 < splatch`> Wombert: can you describe the new flow?
10:25 < Wombert> ?
10:26 < splatch`> Wombert: request-action-output types
10:26 < Wombert> I can
10:26 < Wombert> but not now :)
10:26 < Wombert> gotta go
10:26 < Wombert> see you later
10:26 < splatch`> cU
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12:05 < Wombert> re
12:28 < shoan_> Wombert: have you used apc?
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12:28 < Wombert> yeah
12:28 < Wombert> you having some trouble?
12:28 < shoan> does it require compilation of php scripts?
12:28 < Wombert> no, no
12:28 < shoan> i can't understand how the thing works?
12:28 < Wombert> it all works at runtime
12:28 < Wombert> :)
12:28 < Wombert> simple
12:29 < shoan> do I just need to enable the module and thats it?
12:29 < Wombert> PHP is not an interpreter
12:29 < Wombert> it compiles
12:29 < Wombert> and then runs the code
12:29 < Wombert> it's artificially crippled, basically
12:29 < Wombert> so Zend can sell their accelerator thingie
12:29 < Wombert> APC grabs the bytecode compiled by PHP and stores it, either in the FS or in SHM
12:30 < Wombert> when a file is requested the next time, compilation is skipped and the stored bytecode is passed to the execution engine
12:30 < Wombert> all you have to do is enable APC
12:31 < Wombert> extension=apc.so
12:31 < Wombert> auto_globals_jit = Off
12:31 < Wombert> apc.max_file_size = 4M
12:31 < Wombert> is what I use
12:31 < shoan> ah ok
12:31 < eremit> but be aware (require|include)_once can really kill your apc ^^
12:34 < Wombert> unless you use PHP 5.2 w/ latest APC
12:34 < Wombert> and
12:34 < Wombert> Agavi doesn't use _once anymore anyway
12:34 < eremit> but Propel does and it does it often ...
12:34 < eremit> pear also ...
12:35 < eremit> like most 3rd party libs
12:40 < v-dogg> and Zend
12:40 < eremit> i consider zend as 3rd party lib ... and mostly it equals pear :P
12:40 < eremit> at least what i've seen of zend_fw
12:41 < Wombert> compared to ezComponents, zend has an uber fugly architecture, organization and loading mechanism
12:41 < Wombert> onces all over the place
12:41 < Wombert> no autoloading
12:41 < Wombert> etc etc
12:46 < eremit> hmm i must admit there is one thing i like about zend ... their naming conventions and directory layout ...
12:46 < eremit> it was the only thing i felt conformtable with at the very first moment ...
12:51 < splatch`> zend going to some changes in MVC layer
12:51 < splatch`> i saw notes on wiki
12:52 * Wombert ponders
12:53 < Wombert> should I create ServiceRequest etc
12:53 < Wombert> and then subclass these for speciifc implementations (PEAR::SOAP, Zend_XMLRPC etc)
12:54 < Wombert> or ServiceRequest and then SoapServiceRequest which supports a lot of implementations already
12:54 < splatch`> Wombert: service = non browser?
12:54 < Wombert> and you configure which one you want
12:55 < splatch`> Wombert: what service request will do?
12:55 < Wombert> ...
12:55 < Wombert> handle web services?
12:55 < Wombert> :p
12:55 < ttj> Hmm... But does writing SoapServiceRequest bring added overhead and complexity, if you need to enclose various implementations inside it?
12:55 < Wombert> AgaviZendsoapRequest, AgaviZendsoapResponse etc
12:55 < raidman> Ebay and so?
12:56 < Wombert> ttj: that's the question
12:56 < Wombert> we could either offer concrete implementations for each solution out there
12:56 < ttj> Without pondering about it, I would say implementation-specific classes.
12:56 < Wombert> or have one Soap* and one Xmlrpc* that each support the various implementations
12:56 < Wombert> yeah
12:57 < splatch`> Wombert: handle hm.. for soap you must parse only request and format good response, not more
12:57 < Wombert> I first wanted to go with one-class-to-rule-them-all but I guess that's a better idea
12:57 < splatch`> Wombert: AgaviZendsoapResponse's wrong
12:57 < Wombert> splatch`: and a routing and, maybe, a controller
12:57 < Wombert> no, it is not
12:57 < splatch`> zend?
12:57 < splatch`> what for?
12:57 < splatch`> Wombert: AgaviSoapResponse's good
12:57 < ttj> The one-class-to-rule-them-all would be an elegant way to do it, yes, but I don't know how maintainable that will be in a real world scenario.
12:58 < raidman> what you thing about somthing like abstraction layer?
12:58 < raidman> think*
12:58 < Wombert> what do you mean
12:58 < Wombert> abstraction layer?
12:59 < ttj> I think raidman is suggesting the one-class-to-rule-them-all approach.
12:59 < raidman> yeah
12:59 < ttj> Similar to abstracting database connections.
12:59 < raidman> exactly
12:59 < splatch`> Wombert: soap's standard protocol, i don't see any real sugests to create class for zend soap implementation
12:59 < Wombert> ...
12:59 < Wombert> splatch`: I have to decode the soap request
12:59 < Wombert> I have to encode the response
12:59 < Wombert> etc etc etc
13:00 < splatch`> Wombert: ok, but you can do this without zend :]
13:00 < Wombert> ...
13:00 < Wombert> splatch`: that was just an example
13:00 * Wombert sighs
13:00 < Wombert> AgaviZendsoapRequest extends AgaviServiceRequest
13:00 < Wombert> AgaviPhpxmlrpcRequest extends AgaviServiceRequest
13:01 < Wombert> AgaviPearsoapRequest extends AgaviServiceRequest
13:01 < Wombert> got it?
13:01 < splatch`> hmm.. you want use Zend to get request parameters etc?
13:01 < raidman> hmm, yeah like AgaviView ...
13:01 < Wombert> ttj: but that would be the exact opposite
13:01 < ttj> Yes, I know.
13:02 < Wombert> we have a) the option above (implementation for each of the libs out there) or AgaviSoapRequest that can handle Zend, Pear, native PHP, NuSOAP etc
13:02 < Wombert> there's a b) missing there
13:02 < ttj> a) has essentially two levels (AgaviRequest-level and the lib) and b) has three (Request, Soap, lib).
13:03 < splatch`> Wombert: something like Agavi database layer?
13:03 < ttj> I like simplicity, and that's why I'd prefer a). But that's just my 2 cents.
13:03 < Wombert> ?
13:03 < Wombert> ttj: I'll go with a)
13:03 < splatch`> Wombert: CreoleDatabase, AgaviMysqlDatabase, PDODatabase
13:03 < Wombert> uuuhm
13:03 < Wombert> yes?
13:03 < Wombert> :>
13:05 < splatch`> all request shuld handle Agavi
13:05 < Wombert> I don't get what you're saying
13:05 < splatch`> *should
13:06 < splatch`> Wombert: Request abstraction is good idea
13:08 < v-dogg> Wombert: I'd vote for a) too
13:08 < splatch`> but agavi can use other than browser request without additional libs
13:08 < splatch`> like Zend or PEAR
13:20 < Wombert> splatch`: requests are already abstracted!?
13:20 < Wombert> no way
13:20 < Wombert> we are a framework
13:20 < Wombert> not a toolkit
13:33 < eremit> Wombert, there ?
13:34 < eremit> I have a problem with the fpf ... i have about 10 checkboxes all name="mode" but different values ... your fpf does not select the correct one if i say populate?! ... intention or bug ?
13:36 < eremit> forget it ... i'm silly ^^ ...
13:43 < eremit> uhm ... radio buttons (which i really wanted) have the same problem
13:46 < Wombert> 10 checkboxes with the same name and different values?
13:46 < Wombert> that's stupid
13:46 < Wombert> because only one value arrives
13:46 < eremit> yes that's why i said i really wanted radio buttons
13:46 < eremit> something like
13:47 < eremit> ..... value="single" ...
13:47 < Wombert> let me have a look
13:56 < splatch`> Wombert: I don't understood AgaviZendsoapRequest :]
14:05 < raidman> and what about chackboxes with mode[] name? I didn't test this, may be one of you?
14:05 < raidman> ah that's stupid
14:05 < Wombert> that works, of course
14:05 < raidman> ignore it :P
14:05 < raidman> hrh?
14:05 < Wombert> I'm afraid Dominik messed something up and I have to fix it before I can test
14:05 < Wombert> FPF can handle foo[] checkboxes
14:06 < Wombert> it also handles any foo[][data][3][] field etc etc
14:06 < raidman> really!
14:06 < Wombert> yes
14:06 < raidman> :)
14:10 < Wombert> eremit: I cannot reproduce that problem
14:10 < Wombert> the radio button is re-populated correctly for me
14:10 < eremit> hmmm ...
14:10 < Wombert> are you using the latest FPF
14:10 < Wombert> but I cannot remember a bug there
14:10 < Wombert> I know I always tested that
14:10 < eremit> uhm ... moment
14:11 < Wombert> gawd these validators are SO fucked up
14:11 < eremit> yes i using the latest trunk ...
14:12 < eremit> i'll debug the whole process ... maybe i find the problem ...
14:12 < Wombert> another field with the same name?
14:12 < eremit> wouldn't fpf throw an error then ?
14:12 < Wombert> why should it
14:12 < Wombert> and how could it
14:12 < Wombert> ...
14:13 < eremit> no i have only 10 occurrences of "mode"
14:13 < Wombert> all radios?
14:13 < Wombert> mhm
14:13 < eremit> yep
14:13 < Wombert> any duplicate values?
14:13 < eremit> nop
14:13 < Wombert> mhm
14:13 < eremit> currently they are stupidly numbered ...
14:14 < Wombert> I added
14:14 < Wombert>
14:14 < Wombert>
14:14 < Wombert>
14:14 < Wombert> to the sample app
14:14 < Wombert> LoginInput.php
14:14 < Wombert> and it works
14:14 < eremit> could it cause a problem if i don't repopulate the form ...
14:14 < Wombert> ?
14:14 < eremit> i'm populating it via setAttribute('populate', $this->getAttributes(), .... )
14:15 < Wombert> oh come on
14:15 < Wombert> http://trac.agavi.org/trac.cgi/changeset/1055
14:16 < CIA-1> david * r1089 /trunk/src/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Z O M G
14:19 < eremit> umpf ... now i realize the full impact of this commit :/ ... f.ck
14:20 < Wombert> it's a simple search and replace
14:21 < eremit> it isn'T
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14:21 < Wombert> of course it is
14:22 < eremit> but how to handle it if the form does not have an id tag :P
14:22 < Wombert> ???
14:22 < Wombert> ARGH
14:22 < Wombert> READ
14:22 < Wombert> THE
14:22 < eremit> there are currently 196 form tags without id
14:22 < Wombert> COMMIT
14:22 < Wombert> MESSAGE
14:22 < Wombert> ...
14:23 < eremit> then i dont get the message ...
14:23 < eremit> i've read it about 100 times ...
14:23 < Wombert> , support for initial population of multiple forms (ATTN, BREAKING CHANGE: array keys are form id, value a ParameterHolder? of data to populate. use ParameterHolders? now to populate the form that belongs to the action. new AgaviParameterHolder(array(...)) does the job))
14:23 < eremit> yes ... which i interpret as my form needs an id tag ^^
14:23 < Wombert> noß
14:23 < Wombert> maaan
14:24 < eremit> array keys are form id, value a parameterholder ...
14:24 < Wombert> mhm
14:24 < Wombert> how about reading on
14:24 < Wombert> you know, there's a full stop after that...
14:24 < Wombert> and then
14:24 < Wombert> there is another sentence
14:24 < eremit> yeah i interpret the rest as how to create the parameter holder ...
14:25 < Wombert> "use ParameterHolders? now to populate the form that belongs to the action. new AgaviParameterHolder(array(...)) does the job"
14:25 < Wombert> "the form that belongs to the action"
14:25 < Wombert> not "any form based on ID"
14:25 < eremit> ok i get what you mean ... but sorry, i cannot read this out of this message ^^ ...
14:26 < Wombert> all you have to do
14:26 < Wombert> is pass in a single parameter holder
14:26 < Wombert> instead of an array
14:26 < Wombert> because an array is now used to populate _any_form based on their ID
14:27 * Wombert sighs
14:27 < eremit> ok i got it ... but still cannot read it out of this message ^^ :P sorry, maybe i miss some slight nuances about this message
14:28 < Wombert> I thought "use ... now to populate the form that belongs to the action" would be clear enough :p
14:28 < Wombert> maybe not xD
14:29 < eremit> yes basically it is ... but i see the whole sentence as a reflexive description of the sentence in front of it ;)
14:29 < eremit> neverless ...
14:53 < eremit> yes basically it is ... but i see the whole sentence as a reflexive description of the sentence in front of it ;)
14:53 < eremit> ups ... sorry
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18:39 < eremit> Wombert .. i've found the lighttp bug i talked about some days ago
18:39 < eremit> at least i'm able to reproduce ...
18:44 < splatch`> Wombert: are you there? :)
18:46 < splatch`> i found bug
18:46 < splatch`> http://trac.agavi.org/trac.cgi/browser/trunk/src/exception/templates/shiny.php
18:46 < splatch`> lines 84 and 88
18:47 < splatch`> header from 88 should be after if
18:48 < splatch`> back, before
19:24 < eremit> Wombert and found the problem ... :/ looks like a fcgi related bug ...
19:29 < eremit> and apache2 doesnt have it ... f.ck
19:33 < Wombert> what's the problem
19:33 < eremit> if you have an alias defined ... and the alias points to the www of the webapp
19:33 < eremit> all leading pathes are removed ...
19:34 < eremit> server.document-root = "/path/to/project/www" -> works
19:34 < Wombert> is cgi.fix_pathinfo on?
19:34 < eremit> yep
19:34 < eremit> alias.url = ("/testing" => "/path/to/project/www") -> doesn't work
19:35 < eremit> and only it doesnt work if you call localhost/testing/index.php/
19:35 < eremit> if you call testing/index.php?/ SCRIPT_NAME = testing/index.php
19:35 < eremit> if you call testing/index.php/ -> SCRIPT_NAME = /index.php
19:36 < Wombert> that still looks like a path info problem to me
19:36 < eremit> for me it looks like this one: http://trac.lighttpd.net/trac/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions#Whatkindofenvironmentdoesserver.error-handler-404setup
19:37 < Wombert> is PHP_SELF correct?
19:37 < Wombert> or any other value
19:38 < eremit> ORIG_SCRIPT_FILENAME ^^
19:38 < eremit> for me it looks like alias is working as a hidden rewrite ... Oo
19:39 < eremit> cgi.fix_pathinfo doesn't affect it at all ...
19:42 < eremit> does agavi need PATH_INFO somewhere ?
19:46 < eremit> ok the problem is the broken-scriptfilename directive in fastcgi.server of lighttp
19:46 < eremit> broken-scriptfn _must_ be set to disable ... to get a proper script_name
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19:47 < eremit> (something for the docs^^)
19:55 < CIA-1> david * r1090 /trunk/src/exception/templates/shiny.php: header fix
19:55 < Wombert> jake: you there?
19:56 < Wombert> eremit: that happens only with index.php/blah?
19:56 < Wombert> not with rewriting on?
19:56 < eremit> yes ...
19:57 < eremit> the moment i activate the rewrite rules, everything works ...
19:57 < Wombert> and what's the name of that technique
19:57 < eremit> (and that was the reason why i haven't found the bug yet)
19:57 < Wombert> alias?
19:57 < eremit> alias.url ...
19:57 < Wombert> okay
19:57 < eremit> the same as Apache's Alias directive ...
19:58 < Wombert> and the name of the directive?
19:58 < eremit> alias.url ... is the directive
19:59 < Wombert> the other one
19:59 < eremit> ah ... "broken-scriptfilename" => "disable" in fastcgi.server
20:01 < CIA-1> david * r1091 /trunk/docs/docbook/manual.xml: LigHTTPD 'alias.url' info
20:01 < eremit> but we should consider finding a solution about this ...
20:02 < Wombert> any trouble with the forms so far?
20:02 < Wombert> why
20:02 < eremit> because i cannot determine what's the impact of setting this to disable :)
20:02 < Wombert> mmh
20:02 < Wombert> it works
20:02 < Wombert> that's all we need to know :)
20:02 < eremit> their docs are quite short regarding this ...
20:02 < eremit> looks like it completly breaks PATH_INFO ... while being disabled
20:03 < Wombert> hmh
20:03 * Wombert sighs
20:03 * Wombert fires up lighttpd to have a look
20:05 < eremit> that's all i can find about the directive: broken-scriptfilename: breaks SCRIPT_FILENAME in a wat that PHP can extract PATH_INFO from it.
20:05 < eremit> and i'm searching for some time on their website ;)
20:10 < Wombert> I'm afraid I can't reproduce that
20:10 < eremit> uh ?
20:10 < Wombert> alias.url = ( "/testing" => "/Library/WebServer/Documents" )
20:10 < Wombert> http://127.0.0.1:81/testing/info.php/fubar
20:10 < Wombert> _SERVER["SCRIPT_NAME"] /testing/info.php
20:11 < eremit> lighttp version ?
20:11 < eremit> and mod_fcgi settings ?
20:11 < Wombert> 1.4.11
20:11 < eremit> me too
20:11 < Wombert> fastcgi.server = ( ".php" =>
20:11 < Wombert> ( "localhost" =>
20:11 < Wombert> (
20:11 < Wombert> "socket" => "/tmp/php-fastcgi.socket",
20:11 < Wombert> "bin-path" => "/opt/local/bin/php-fcgi"
20:12 < eremit> http://phpfi.com/159508
20:12 < eremit> ^^ my one
20:34 < Wombert> eremit: wanna try one last thing
20:34 < Wombert> how do I permit access to file outside the docroot
20:34 < Wombert> errr
20:34 < Wombert> xDDD
20:34 < Wombert> wait
20:35 < Wombert> okay
20:35 < Wombert> still can't reproduce
20:35 < Wombert> sorry
20:35 < Wombert> edge case
20:35 < Wombert> => wontfix
20:35 < Wombert> or, rather
20:35 < Wombert> "cantfix"
20:35 < Wombert> anyway
20:35 < Wombert> gotta do some shopping
20:35 * Wombert runs
20:46 < splatch`> Wombert
20:47 < splatch`> how to create docs? ;]
20:48 < splatch`> i've error with saxon 8
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21:50 < stoni> hello
21:52 < shoan> i think the routing is broken in the sample app
22:07 < Wombert> shoan: how?
22:08 < shoan> Wombert: try the last link in the sample app
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22:20 < Wombert> shoan: ah
22:20 < shoan> Wombert: are you able to reproduce it or is it just me?
22:20 < Wombert> not a routing problem
22:20 < Wombert> you mean the parameter that doesn't show up?
22:21 < shoan> yes
22:21 < Wombert> that because validation is in "strict" mode
22:22 < Wombert> hmmh
22:22 < Wombert> second issue I run into with the damn validation system today
22:23 < Wombert> ARRRGH
22:23 < Wombert> ffs
22:23 < shoan> ?
22:24 < Wombert> the validation system
22:24 < Wombert> sucks
22:24 < Wombert> big time
22:28 < Wombert> and tainted mode doesn't work either
22:28 < Wombert> dominik is looking into it
22:28 < shoan> ok
22:29 < splatch`> Wombert: you generate agavi manual with docbook?
22:29 < Wombert> yeah
22:29 < Wombert> I use XMLMind XMLEditor
22:29 < Wombert> for editing
22:30 < splatch`> so you don't use xslt processor :)
22:33 < CIA-1> david * r1092 /trunk/src/config/AgaviFactoryConfigHandler.class.php: don't compile in translation manager if core.use_translation is off
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23:54 < splatch`> nighy!
23:54 < splatch`> night!
--- Day changed Tue Oct 03 2006
00:22 < raidman> night
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09:13 < splatch`> mornin'
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09:15 < raidman> morning
09:17 < splatch`> oi raidman!
09:17 < raidman> :)
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10:17 < v-dogg> splatch`: wombie uses XMLMind for _editing_
10:17 < splatch`> v-dogg: they told me this :)
10:17 < v-dogg> xslt is used for outputting
10:17 < splatch`> I know
10:17 < v-dogg> there's a phing task for that
10:17 < v-dogg> don
10:17 < splatch`> saxon manual.xml agav-manual-html.xsl
10:17 < v-dogg> 't know if it works anymore, though
10:17 < splatch`> doesn't work
10:18 < v-dogg> why not?
10:18 < splatch`> saxon gives an error
10:18 < splatch`> with no root document etc
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19:21 < splatch`> Wombert: can I use index from route pattern into module/action attribute?
19:31 < Wombert> splatch`: ?
19:31 < splatch`> Wombert: i have pattern ^/(\w+)-(\w+)
19:31 < splatch`> first index it's module, second it's action
19:32 < Wombert> okay
19:32 < Wombert> I think that's uncool but... why not :)
19:32 < Wombert> in fact
19:32 < Wombert> it's very stupid
19:32 < Wombert> because that's not what the routing was made for
19:32 < Wombert> you can achieve the same using a simple mod_rewrite
19:33 < splatch`> i have routes and i don't need mod_rewrite
19:33 < Wombert> ???
19:33 < splatch`> that can be also path info
19:33 < splatch`> index.php/module-action
19:36 < splatch`> I don't have to define maany routes for all modules
19:37 < splatch`> because this route will be default
19:37 < splatch`> pattern="^/(module:\w+)/(action:\w+)"
19:37 < splatch`> works fine
20:07 < Wombert> right
20:08 < Wombert> but that still defies the entire purpose of the routing
20:08 < Wombert> you could just as well set up a rewrite rule that does that
20:08 < Wombert> also, you have the ugly index.php in there
20:08 < Wombert> you can't generate routes
20:08 < Wombert> etc etc etc etc
20:08 < Wombert> => stupid
20:11 < splatch`> Wombert: what for, routes exists, sa i'll use that
20:11 < Wombert> ?
20:11 < splatch`> i don't use rewrite rules because routing's good
20:12 < splatch`> if i'll need subroute with rss, i'll made this in one place
20:12 < Wombert> you don't get what I'm saying
20:13 < splatch`> Wombert: routing != nice urls
20:13 < splatch`> Wombert: you saw that :)
20:13 < Wombert> ...
20:13 < Wombert> routing = nice urls
20:13 < Wombert> that's what routing is about
20:13 < Wombert> you're using the routing in the wrong way
20:13 < Wombert> you could just as well NOT use it
20:13 < Wombert> because you're not leveraging it's abilities at all
20:14 < splatch`> Wombert: i can give my user panel to they can edit routes
20:21 < Wombert> splatch`: as you wish, of course
20:21 < Wombert> but please don't write an agavi tutorial where you explain it that way
20:22 < Wombert> because it's not the approach we recommend
20:22 < splatch`> Wombert: i'll give example with rss output type
20:22 < splatch`> and variable set
20:22 < Wombert>
20:22 < Wombert> or maybe even
20:23 < splatch`> Wombert: but i don't understand why that's not recommended, in symfony that's normal usage of routes
20:23 < Wombert> yes
20:23 < Wombert> because symfony is bullshit
20:23 < Wombert>
20:23 < Wombert>
20:23 < Wombert>
20:23 < Wombert>
20:23 < Wombert>
20:26 < splatch`> Wombert: "because symfony is bullshit" and "not recommended" it's not good argument
20:26 < Wombert> yes it is
20:26 < Wombert> their routing approach is totally wrong
20:26 < splatch`> better is "you can use rewrite rule"
20:26 < Wombert> unlike them, we write our own code
20:26 < Wombert> with our own ideas
20:26 < Wombert> they just copy ideas from other frameworks
20:26 < Wombert> which means they also copy the weaknesses of other solutions
20:27 < Wombert> the whole point of our routing is that you have _real_ "nice" URLs that you can also re-generate
20:27 < Wombert> without having to specify module or action in the routes
20:28 < Wombert> just because they do it one way, that doesn't mean it's good :)
20:29 < Wombert> just look at their "ajax actions"
20:29 < Wombert> they are missing the point _entirely_
20:29 < Wombert> it's utter nonsense, from A to Z
20:29 < splatch`> ajax action = helper
20:29 < Wombert> no
20:29 < Wombert> ajax action = nonsense
20:30 < splatch`> they have "support" for ajax with helpers and ajax triggers
20:31 < splatch`> ajax actions really doesn't exists
20:31 < splatch`> Wombert: true?
20:33 < Wombert> wrong
20:33 < Wombert> they say "ajax actions"
20:33 < Wombert> they have a dedicated concept for handling ACTIONS(!) for ajax requests
20:33 < Wombert> and that's wrong
20:34 < splatch`> ach
20:34 < Wombert> they don't know what they're doing, and they are listening to the demands of stupid newbies instead of telling them to learn PHP _first_ and then come back
20:34 < Wombert> http://www.symfony-project.com/weblog/2006/08/25/heading-towards-symfony-1-0.html
20:34 < Wombert> AJAX actions have no layout by default. This is another long-demanded evolution and it will simplify greatly the design of AJAX interactions - no more view.yml to write, unless you want specifically to decorate the action result. Will you ever need to use the setLayout method? (read the AJAX documentation to learn more).
20:34 < splatch`> Wombert: i'll see
20:34 < Wombert> a) actions don't have layout. never. ever. it's not the job of an action to control presentation
20:34 < splatch`> Wombert: that's terrible thing!
20:35 < Wombert> b) our output types are a better approach to that, because it a) leaves presentation where it belongs and b) it leaves the action open to other types
20:35 < Wombert> of requests
20:35 < splatch`> Wombert: can i translate you sentences and publicate on my blog?
20:35 < Wombert> you can use our action on the web, on the console, on IRC... via a browser, XMLRPC, SOAP, JSON, REST, whatever you like
20:36 < Wombert> no, please don't ;)
20:36 < splatch`> Wombert: about ajax-actions :)
20:36 < Wombert> if I want the world to hear my symfony bashing, I'll write my own blog post
20:36 < Wombert> I don't want to bash symfony. We certainly have the technology to back our complaints, but we do not have the website or documentation for it
20:37 < splatch`> Wombert: ok, i'll wrote my opinion ;)
20:37 < Wombert> before I write a blog posting titled "Why Agavi is better than Symfony/CakePHP/whatever", we need a website, a release and documentation for it
20:37 < Wombert> but do you understand what my problem is with this ajax action stuff?
20:37 < Wombert> it's not clean
20:38 < Wombert> NOTHING in symfony is clean because they added new stuff too quick
20:38 < Wombert> fabien said that to me, too
20:38 < Wombert> he said he wished he hadn't added so many helpers etc because helpers are bad in frameworks
20:38 < Wombert> "setLayout has been added to the action methods. This one has been requested for a long time, under the name "Bring back setLayout!" while it has never been in the trunk... But under the strongest pressure of the community ever, the ability to deactivate or modify layout decoration from the action, and not only from the view.yml, has been added to the framework. Note that the hasLayout() method has not been implemented, replaced by
20:39 < Wombert> another thing
20:39 < splatch`> Wombert: output types are better because they don't need more logic, any changes it's only output, no any logic
20:39 < Wombert> you know the IRC bot, right?
20:39 < Wombert> you cannot do that with symfony
20:40 < Wombert> I saw a posting on the symfony mailing list the other day
20:40 < Wombert> where they talked about SOAP
20:40 < splatch`> soap in symfony, omg!
20:40 < Wombert> their solution was to add a method to a front controller for _all_ methods that are supposed to be callable
20:40 < Wombert> how STUPID
20:40 < splatch`> i don't see that
20:40 < Wombert> and then people reply "THANK YOU THANK YOU PERFECT SOLUTION"
20:40 < Wombert> so essentially, symfony works like this:
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20:41 < Wombert> a totally flawed framework is used by totally clueless people
20:41 < Wombert> most of who don't know PHP and aren't told to learn it for their own sake
20:41 < Wombert> then they ask questions
20:41 < Wombert> and other clueless people have wrong answers to the questions
20:41 < Wombert> so even more people are using the framework the wrong way
20:41 < Wombert> nobody benefits from that
20:42 < Wombert> because in 6 months or in a year they'll realize how wrong it was and run into massive problems when they try to add new stuff to their applications etc
20:42 < Wombert> I really wish symfony had a big note on the front page saying "DO NOT USE SYMFONY UNLESS YOU ARE EXPERIENCED IN PHP"
20:42 < Wombert> and I also wish they would finally get their license stuff together
20:42 < shoan> what are we ranting about today? ;)
20:42 < Wombert> guess
20:42 < Wombert> :>
20:43 < Wombert> symfony :>
20:43 < Wombert> it's all in the logs in case you're interested
20:43 < shoan> heh
20:43 < Wombert> the discussion is only 10 minutes old or so
20:43 < shoan> heading right there
20:43 < Wombert> sample app is fixed btw
20:43 < splatch`> Wombert: no discussion
20:43 < shoan> Wombert: cool
20:43 < splatch`> Wombert: I agree
20:43 < Wombert> or, rather, the validator manager now handles tainted mode correctly
20:43 < splatch`> with you
20:43 < Wombert> :)
20:43 < Wombert> you don't have to, remember that
20:43 < Wombert> if you disagree, just say it ;>
20:44 < Wombert> the #1 problem of symfony is
20:44 < Wombert> the legal issues
20:44 < Wombert> they don't get their bloody act together
20:44 < Wombert> even though I reminded fabien of it
20:44 < splatch`> Wombert: soap and ajax actions are very bad idea
20:44 < Wombert> in trunk there's a LICENSE file that says "copyright fabien potencier, licensed under MIT"
20:44 < Wombert> but they bundle propel
20:44 < Wombert> creole
20:44 < Wombert> prototype
20:44 < Wombert> etc
20:44 < Wombert> and these are _not_ MIT
20:45 < splatch`> LGPL
20:45 < Wombert> and they bundle data from ICU
20:45 < Wombert> without a copyright notice
20:45 < Wombert> the funny thing is
20:45 < Wombert> they copied the data from Prado
20:45 < Wombert> all files are identical
20:45 < Wombert> the only file missing is LICENSE.txt
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20:46 < splatch`> Wombert: as you say before - php function to insert image is sick :)
20:46 < Wombert> http://trac.pradosoft.com/browser/trunk/framework/I18N/core/data/license.txt
20:47 < Wombert> actually, symfony copied code from agavi
20:47 < Wombert> and agavi is LGPL
20:47 < Wombert> they copied it to a MIT licensed project
20:47 < Wombert> the LGPL doesn't allow that
20:47 < Wombert> but who cares, right?
20:47 < Wombert> all the magazines
20:47 < Wombert> and idiots with blogs etc
20:47 < Wombert> say "mmhmmm use symfony"
20:47 < Wombert> "it's nice"
20:48 < Wombert> I wonder what people would say if someone told them about symfony's I-don't-give-a-shit-about-licenses-and-copyright attitude
20:49 < splatch`> Wombert: Are you've fury? :)
20:49 < Wombert> everything boils down to the point that symfony is, in essence, a totally messed up version of what once was a good framework (mojavi3) with huge license issues and a retarded user base
20:49 < Wombert> nah
20:49 < Wombert> not even close to in a bad mood ;)
20:49 < Wombert> I'm just telling the truth, that's all ;)
20:49 < Wombert> I mean
20:50 < Wombert> this ranting is fun ;) it doesn't make me angry
20:50 < shoan> hmmm....symfony
20:51 < splatch`> Wombert: my designer told me about our plans, they going to made some examples
20:51 < splatch`> and give to rate
20:51 < Wombert> oooh
20:51 < Wombert> that's fantastic news!
20:51 < Wombert> thank you for your effort
20:51 < Wombert> and say big thank you to them, too
20:51 < Wombert> I really, really appreciate your help!
20:52 < splatch`> Wombert: agavi'll the best :)
20:54 < Wombert> I hope so :)
20:54 < splatch`> Wombert: no hope, certainty!
21:00 < raidman> yeah :)
21:07 < raidman> http://forums.programming-designs.com/viewtopic.php?id=599
21:12 < raidman> lol
21:12 < raidman> http://hunkinsexperiments.com/pages/mathematics.htm
21:18 < raidman> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuoljANz4EA&eurl=
21:40 < splatch`> raidman: wow
21:42 < raidman> :)
21:52 < shoan> Wombert: why does the sample app crap out when I disable translation in settings.xml?
21:52 < shoan> shouldn't there be some sort of fall back mechanism?
21:53 < Wombert> shoan: nah
21:54 < Wombert> the sample app uses the translation so...
21:54 < Wombert> imagine an app that uses a database
21:54 < Wombert> and you set use_database to false ;)
21:54 < Wombert> that wouldn't work either
21:54 < Wombert> basically, routing and security are the only things you can disable without breaking anything
21:54 < shoan> agreed :)
21:57 < splatch`> http://blog.dywicki.pl/2006/10/03/zend-framework-and-others/
21:57 < splatch`> why don't clone ZF
21:57 < splatch`> and why ZF will relased :)
21:58 < splatch`> you saw people who write own framework based on ZF structure?
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22:56 < v-dogg> Wombert: did you write to that symfony guy about their license issues?
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22:59 < impl> What's wrong with them?
23:00 < v-dogg> at some point symfony was public domain
23:00 < v-dogg> but for example mojavi is lgpl
23:00 < impl> ah
23:00 < v-dogg> and they have taken code from several projects
23:05 < Wombert> they got permission from feti
23:05 < Wombert> and yes
23:05 < Wombert> I told fabien about the missing license.txt just the other day
23:05 < Wombert> he said something like "yeah I know but I'm working on my own parser for the ICU data anyway"
23:06 < Wombert> symfony still _is_ MIT licensed
23:06 < Wombert> the one license file there leads to believe that
23:06 < Wombert> a) propel is a symfony thing
23:06 < Wombert> b) propel is MIT, too
23:06 < Wombert> same for the other stuff bundled
23:23 < splatch`> Wombert: you continue symfony thread? :)
23:23 < Wombert> nah, just replying to v-dogg's question
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23:55 < toby_swe> hi
23:55 < Wombert> hi toby_swe
23:56 < toby_swe> which one of phptal and smarty would be the best in terms of rendering times and overhead load?
23:56 < Wombert> smarty I guess
23:56 < impl> Neither :(
23:56 < Wombert> yeah
23:57 < Wombert> but I guess that's not quite the answer he wanted to hear ;)
23:57 < impl> No one likes the radical ideas of the grand impl! :P
23:57 < Wombert> phptal is a nice idea but I found it way too annoying
23:57 < toby_swe> so what's the "real" answer?
23:57 < Wombert> use PHP :)
23:58 < impl> http://phptal.motion-twin.com/introduction.html
23:58 < impl> I even prefer the PHP method there
23:58 < toby_swe> that was my guess
23:58 < Wombert>
23:58 < Wombert> there's a
23:58 < Wombert>
23:58 < Wombert> missing there
23:58 < impl> :P
23:58 < Wombert> with the alternative syntax, templates become a bit less ugly
--- Day changed Wed Oct 04 2006
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01:25 < Wombert> mmmh
01:25 < Wombert> native speakers
01:25 < Wombert> let's see
01:25 < Wombert> back there in the last row, the guy that's playing with his balls
01:25 < Wombert> isn't his name "impl"
01:25 < Wombert> :>>>
01:25 < Wombert> is it "use autoloading", "use autoload" or "use autoloads"?
01:25 * Wombert smacks impl
01:26 < impl> Ow ow ow
01:26 < impl> Give me the context of the phrase, please
01:26 < Wombert> uhm
01:26 < Wombert> propel.useAutoloading = true
01:26 < Wombert> in build.properties
01:26 < Wombert> is that okay?
01:26 < Wombert> useAutoloads
01:26 < Wombert> ?
01:26 < impl> I'd say useAutoload
01:26 * Wombert scratches head
01:26 < impl> If the function is called autoload
01:27 < Wombert> it's referring to the procedure of autoloading methods
01:27 < Wombert> err
01:27 < Wombert> classes
01:27 < Wombert> not the function
01:27 < impl> Hmmmmm
01:27 < Wombert> the function is called autoload because... autoload($class) :D
01:27 < impl> I guess useAutoloading is good, then
01:27 < Wombert> okay <:
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04:16 < Wombert> splatch`: are you there? :>
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07:15 < shoan_> is $ phing manual-html broken?
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07:59 < v-dogg> shoan: there was some problem with it. haven't had time to fix it
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08:39 < shoan> v-dogg: ok
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09:22 < splatch`> hello
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10:18 < sho[a]n> what are renderer extensions? the template's file extension?
10:33 < ttj> Most likely.
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14:20 < shoan_> wombieeeeeee
14:26 < splatch`> hello Wombert, I'm here :)
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15:01 < Wombert> :)
15:01 < Wombert> I forgot it :(
15:02 < splatch`> Wombert: 03:16:32 < Wombert> splatch`: are you there? :>
15:03 < Wombert> yes I know
15:03 < Wombert> but as I said
15:03 < Wombert> I forgot :)
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16:30 < Wombert> splatch`: that wasn't it, but... I'll apply and commit your propel patch later :)
16:31 < splatch`> not only me :)
16:31 < Wombert> ?
17:04 < splatch`> Wombert: the idea it's other man
17:05 < splatch`> I only extend builder
17:07 < Wombert> ah
17:07 < Wombert> okay :)
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21:21 < splatch`> Wombert: today, at night will be an logo
21:21 < splatch`> or design
21:21 < Wombert> oO
21:21 < Wombert> really?
21:21 < Wombert> wow
21:21 < splatch`> minds draft
21:21 < Wombert> awesome!
21:21 < Wombert> I recently had another idea
21:21 < Wombert> if we have a logo in vector format
21:22 < Wombert> we can't only print that on paper
21:22 < Wombert> but also on cups
21:22 < Wombert> or t-shirts :)
21:23 < splatch`> we wanna Agavi t-shirts! :)
21:23 < Wombert> :)
21:24 < splatch`> Wombert: we'll got jug/mug? :)
21:25 < Wombert> http://www.cafepress.com/cakefoundation
21:25 < Wombert> once we have a final logo, I could create some of these, too
21:25 < Wombert> they aren't expensive, so we could have some competitions every now and then and award tshirts etc to the winners
21:26 < Wombert> or send a cap as a thank you to documentation contributors etc
21:26 < splatch`> cool :)
21:32 < splatch`> Wombert: all requests uses only execute read/write methods?
21:32 < Wombert> no
21:32 < Wombert> you are free to define the request methods
21:33 < Wombert> WebRequest maps GET to "read" and POST to "write"
21:33 < Wombert> you could extend that to map PUT to "store" and DELETE to "remove" or so
21:33 < Wombert> the basic idea is that you do not have GET and POST on the console or so
21:33 < Wombert> and that SOAP is always POST
21:36 < ttj> Yay! I'll certainly buy an Agavi coffee mug. :P
22:16 < splatch`> Can I define groups and roles in other place than XML?
22:38 < Wombert> splatch`: of course
22:38 < Wombert> extend the rbac user and overwrite loadDefintions()
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23:46 < splatch`> Wombert!
23:46 < splatch`> http://kazek.pl/agavi1.png
23:54 < splatch`> all people
23:54 < splatch`> rate the design :)
23:55 < impl> Cool
23:55 < impl> I like it
23:55 < impl> I presume the little indent arrows in the navigation will only show on hover?
23:56 < splatch`> impl: moment, i'm asin'
23:56 < splatch`> yes
23:57 < impl> Alright
23:57 < impl> and the design will expand to the full width of the browser?
23:59 < splatch`> impl: no, they've constant width
--- Day changed Thu Oct 05 2006
00:00 * impl suggests making it variable width
00:01 < splatch`> impl: top will expand
00:01 < splatch`> but the body will not expanded
00:01 < impl> Ah, I only suggest making the body variable because it looks a bit squished on my resolution
00:01 < impl> I'm at 1680x1050 though
00:01 < impl> so I'm sort of an exception to the rule ;)
00:02 < splatch`> impl: my friend works with this resolution :)
00:07 < splatch`> impl: they'll check :)
00:08 < splatch`> where's Womert.. ;)
00:08 < impl> :D cool
00:13 < splatch`> http://kazek.pl/agavi2.png
00:13 < splatch`> http://kazek.pl/agavi2.png
00:13 < splatch`> oops :)
00:14 < splatch`> little fix with background
00:15 < impl> Cute :D
00:17 < splatch`> :)
00:17 < splatch`> cake's ugly ;)
00:20 < splatch`> aaargh, where's Womber
00:20 < splatch`> they always gone, wheen i need him! ;)
00:22 * impl prods Wombert with a spoon
00:24 < splatch`> impl: you're so brute! ;)
00:25 < impl> :x
00:25 * splatch` kicks Wombert in ankle
00:32 < splatch`> @shwr
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00:56 < splatch`> wooombert ;)
00:57 < splatch`> i'm have go sleep
00:58 < splatch`> Wombert: if you'll had any ideas, questions etc, just write to me here or on priv
01:02 < splatch`> http://agavi.de/
01:02 < splatch`> oO
01:03 < splatch`> Day changed to 05 Oct 2006
01:03 < splatch`> night!
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03:06 < Wombert> splatch`: schweet!
03:07 < Wombert> impl: running the same resolution here
03:07 < Wombert> there's nothing like a widescreen tft :)
03:07 < Wombert> dell 2007, very nice
03:07 < Wombert> I dig the design
03:07 < Wombert> now all we need is a logo :>
03:08 < impl> :D
03:09 < Wombert> mmmh
03:09 < Wombert> I have a nice idea there already
03:09 < Wombert> see, the default design would be like that
03:09 < Wombert> BUT
03:09 < Wombert> you have a link at the top right
03:09 < Wombert> to "swap" top and bottom
03:09 < Wombert> then, the plant would grow from the bottom
03:09 < Wombert> and the orange bar would sit at the bottom, too, with the grass on top
03:09 < Wombert> and "agavi.org" would be inverted, orange on white background
03:12 < Wombert> the only thing I don't like is the menu
03:12 < Wombert> because it's sitting below the text
03:12 < Wombert> that doesn't make much sense
03:12 < Wombert> but the rest... excellent
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06:52 < sho[a]n> huomenta
06:53 < sho[a]n> morning
06:57 < Wombert> hi sho[a]n
06:58 < Wombert> http://kazek.pl/agavi1.png
06:58 < Wombert> http://kazek.pl/agavi2.png
06:58 < Wombert> :)
06:59 < Wombert> I love it
07:00 < Wombert> this bottom-up thing is brilliant
07:00 < Wombert> I guess we have to put something like "Agavi - Defeat Gravity" or so into the :)
07:00 < Wombert> obviously, the logo isn't there yet
07:00 < sho[a]n> :)
07:00 < Wombert> the only thing I don't like about the draft is the menu
07:00 < Wombert> it's in the totally wrong place ;)
07:01 < Wombert> has to go up into the orange bar
07:01 < sho[a]n> yeah
07:01 < Wombert> agavi2.png is nicer, too
07:01 < Wombert> but
07:01 < sho[a]n> I like the clouds :)
07:01 < Wombert> we should do without the sky and the clouds
07:01 < Wombert> oh
07:01 < Wombert> hmmh
07:01 < sho[a]n> i think the white is too plain
07:01 < Wombert> yeah you might be right
07:01 < Wombert> hmmh
07:02 < sho[a]n> the clouds add to the "defeat gravity" ;)
07:02 < Wombert> I was thinking the opposite xD
07:02 < Wombert> but
07:02 < Wombert> I guess you're right
07:02 < sho[a]n> take a poll later :)
07:02 < Wombert> however, it wouldn't be that easy regarding transparency etc
07:02 < Wombert> yeah, will do
07:02 < Wombert> I'm still up, waiting for splatch` to arrive so I can give him my feedback
07:03 < Wombert> this small label next to the boxes is ultra cool
07:03 < Wombert> I hope they can do a ? and a (i) version of it, too
07:03 < Wombert> we could then use the orange box that currently holds the menu and use it to announce very important things
07:04 < sho[a]n> good point
07:04 < Wombert> such as security updates, should we ever need em
07:04 < Wombert> and
07:04 < Wombert> I had another idea :)
07:04 < Wombert> a little button in the top right
07:04 < Wombert> labeled "I am boring" or so
07:04 < Wombert> and then
07:04 < Wombert> flipppppp
07:04 < Wombert> the orange bar, the grass and the flowers jump to the bottom
07:04 < Wombert> in the right order
07:04 < sho[a]n> :)
07:04 < Wombert> only the small bright orange bar and the menu stay on top, and the logo has inverted colors (orange on white)
07:05 < Wombert> that'll be coooool
07:05 < sho[a]n> i wonder how that would materialise.
07:05 < Wombert> it's easy to do
07:05 < Wombert> just a bit of css
07:05 < Wombert> hmmmh
07:06 < Wombert> we could make the background image fixed
07:06 < Wombert> the clouds
07:06 < Wombert> so they don't scroll away
07:06 < Wombert> and then just use PNG images
07:06 < Wombert> screw IE
07:06 < sho[a]n> lol
07:06 < Wombert> IE7 handles it properly anyway
07:06 < Wombert> nah seriously
07:06 < Wombert> show me a programmer that surfs the web with ie6
07:07 < Wombert> especially once ie7 is out
07:07 < Wombert> I couldn't care less, really
07:07 < Wombert> don't you agree?
07:07 < Wombert> I mean... should we care about ie6 users?
07:07 < sho[a]n> i dumped IE years ago
07:07 < Wombert> see
07:07 < sho[a]n> no we shouldn't
07:08 < Wombert> if we were selling uhm... viagra?
07:08 < Wombert> we would have to care about that 90% market share ie6 has
07:08 < Wombert> but since we're not selling viagra
07:08 < Wombert> because we have no business model at all xD
07:08 < sho[a]n> considering that its viagra, it would sell anyways :p
07:08 < Wombert> we can ignore it
07:08 < Wombert> hmh true
07:08 < Wombert> bad example ^^
07:08 < sho[a]n> hehe
07:09 < Wombert> are you using propel?
07:09 < sho[a]n> yes
07:09 < Wombert> good
07:09 < Wombert> you'll be excited to hear
07:09 < Wombert> that I'm done with that autoloading conversion
07:09 < Wombert> so it doesn't use a single _once include anymore
07:09 < Wombert> and everything is autoloaded on the fly
07:09 < sho[a]n> wow
07:10 < sho[a]n> awesome :)
07:10 < Wombert> the bookstore-test, which doesn't have many reads, is 25% faster
07:10 < sho[a]n> when is that going into svn?
07:10 < Wombert> I expect "normal" applications to be much, much faster
07:10 < Wombert> as soon as I did some more tests
07:10 < Wombert> gonna go into the 1.3 branch
07:10 < Wombert> AND
07:10 < sho[a]n> how do you test speeds?
07:10 < Wombert> right now I only use the test script bundled which shows me the total time after finish
07:11 < sho[a]n> ok
07:11 < sho[a]n> and?
07:11 < Wombert> 870ms vs 1270ms
07:11 < Wombert> 32% faster
07:11 < Wombert> but as I said
07:12 < Wombert> it's not a realistic use case
07:12 < Wombert> real world apps should be MUCH faster
07:12 < Wombert> and if you use an opcode cache
07:12 < Wombert> it's gonna be _even_ faster
07:12 < Wombert> because previously, _once includes weren't cached
07:12 < Wombert> AND
07:12 < Wombert> a friend of splatch` had the idea to patch the doSelectJoin stuff
07:12 < Wombert> so it uses a hash map to remember associations
07:12 < Wombert> that'll boost performance again
07:13 < Wombert> and I had the idea to let PDO hydrate() the rows instead of doing it by hand
07:13 < sho[a]n> how does that work?
07:13 < Wombert> you tell propel the class name
07:13 < sho[a]n> i mean the doSelectJoin
07:13 < Wombert> and then it creates an instance
07:14 < Wombert> good question, can't remember exactly
07:14 < Wombert> and I can't find the patch right now
07:14 -!- shoan_ is now known as shoan
07:15 < Wombert> ah
07:15 < Wombert> here it is
07:15 < Wombert> http://pastebin.ca/191627
07:53 < sho[a]n> how do you include include third party libs(propel/adodb/smarty/foo) in your agavi project?
07:55 < jake> require_once ?
07:55 < jake> Or are you specifically asking about renderers and data access?
08:00 < sho[a]n> jake: I was asking more about how where you would place the files?
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09:10 < raidman> morning
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09:13 < splatch`> Wombert
09:14 < sho[a]n> splatch`: Wombert was waiting for you to give you feedback on the design
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09:14 < sho[a]n> looks like he snoozed off :)
09:14 < splatch`> like i yesterday :)
09:14 < splatch`> i have logs
09:15 < splatch`> goto 00:00
09:16 < digitarald> Morning fellows ...
09:16 < sho[a]n> morning digitarald
09:18 < splatch`> i forgot - hello all :)
09:19 < digitarald> uh ... where are tango icons in agavi ... the sample app?
09:20 < digitarald> ah, i see ... the exceptions ...
09:21 < splatch`> in svg :]
09:27 < raidman> who knows about locks in request parameters?
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09:33 < eremit> morning ..
09:33 < splatch`> Where are from Wombert?
09:33 < eremit> what's your problem with the locks raidman ?
09:34 < splatch`> Where are Wombert from?
09:34 < raidman> eremit: I just want more about idea thit it based on
09:34 < raidman> why we need that and so
09:36 < raidman> you know I nkow we can lock parameter to log set and get
09:36 < raidman> lock*
09:37 < raidman> what can I do with it in real world app?
09:37 < eremit> i think wombert basic idea was to prevent tampering parameters ...
09:37 < eremit> and afaik the parameters are always locked ... except during validation ...
09:38 < raidman> so after validation it unlocked automaticaly?
09:38 < eremit> no ...
09:38 < eremit> it unlocked before validation and locked again afterwards
09:39 < raidman> When I need those I shoul unlock by hand, right?
09:39 < eremit> afaik you are not able to unlock them ...
09:40 < eremit> you should use the parameters parsed into the method execute ...
09:40 < eremit> there was a heavy discussion about this some time ago ...
09:40 < raidman> okey, thanks I'll take a look at logs
09:40 < eremit> it was in august ...
09:41 < raidman> okey
09:41 < eremit> started with me asking about how to unlock the parameters ...
09:41 < eremit> ;)
09:41 < raidman> heh :)
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11:39 < raidman> What OS you are using guys?
11:40 < eremit> Servers: Ubuntu (most), Debian, Gentoo ... Development Desktop: Windows/Ubuntu (about 50/50)
11:43 < raidman> 2 years ago I moved any thing hangs on Windows to Libranet
11:44 < raidman> now I using a distro based on Debian sid
11:44 < raidman> :)
11:44 < shoan> gentoo and os x
11:44 < raidman> for desktop, you know :)
11:45 < raidman> shoan, I'll take a look at Gentoo
11:45 < shoan> raidman: let me know if you need help with it
11:45 < raidman> shoan, okey, thanks
11:46 < eremit> ^^ yeah ... if ya need gentoo help at least EleRas and me can help too
11:47 < raidman> :)
12:19 < raidman> hmm, a couple of months ago Wombert said about a method for handling Components that a guy works on it, I don't remember that, I can't find in in log :(
13:35 < Wombert> re
13:36 < Wombert> splatch`: I'm from Munich, Germany
13:36 < Wombert> raidman: Mac OS X 10.4.8 Tiger <:
13:36 < splatch`> Wombert: in poland we have 13:36
13:36 < splatch`> *12:36
13:36 < splatch`> Wombert: what's time in Munich?
13:36 < Wombert> 12:36 here, yeah
13:36 < Wombert> I snoozed off, I worked until 8am
13:36 < raidman> Wombert, hmm OS X
13:36 < Wombert> on propel :)
13:37 < Wombert> splatch`: I love the design
13:37 < raidman> may be I try it in qemu
13:37 < Wombert> I think we take the agavi2.png version
13:37 < splatch`> Wombert: i'm also :)
13:37 < raidman> what design, agavi logo?
13:37 < Wombert> I even started on a bit of the XHTML for it :)
13:38 < Wombert> http://kazek.pl/agavi1.png
13:38 < splatch`> Wombert: I pasted nightly log my friend
13:38 < Wombert> http://kazek.pl/agavi2.png
13:38 < Wombert> splatch`: I'll write an email with a list of things, okay?
13:38 < Wombert> I'll do it immediately
13:38 < splatch`> Wombert: please :)
13:38 < Wombert> say big thank you to the designers already, awesome job
13:38 < Wombert> will they also create a logo?
13:38 < Wombert> oh nevermind, let me quickly write that email :>
13:38 < splatch`> yep
13:39 < Wombert> what's the designers name?
13:39 < splatch`> Darek
13:39 < splatch`> you can use also kazek
13:39 < splatch`> that's he nick
13:39 < raidman> perfect
13:40 < Wombert> yep
13:40 < raidman> but I don't like that blue background
13:41 < raidman> but I like agavi2.png
13:41 < raidman> :)
13:41 < raidman> what you think Wombie?
13:41 < Wombert> hmm
13:41 < Wombert> I wasn't sure about the background first, either
13:41 < Wombert> let me quickly write the email
13:41 < Wombert> I'll then paste it
13:41 < Wombert> my thoughts and ideas are in there
13:42 < Wombert> the only thing I don't like is the menu
13:42 < Wombert> it's in the wrong place ;)
13:42 < Wombert> the rest is perfect
13:42 < Wombert> I have two ideas to make the design "interactive", too
13:43 < raidman> I want to do one thing (at least) for agavi, If you want I can make it XHTML/CSS2 for you
13:43 < raidman> it will be valid XHRML/CSS2 btw
13:44 < Wombert> oO actually, I started on that already ;)
13:44 < raidman> oh :)
13:44 < Wombert> at least I did the basic structure ^^
13:45 < Wombert> let's wait for the design to be final and then we can talk about it
13:45 < Wombert> thanks for your offer!
13:45 < raidman> okey :)
13:49 < splatch`> hehe, new design, new power :)
13:49 < splatch`> new logo, double power!
13:50 < Wombert> HOLY
13:50 < Wombert> CRAP
13:50 < Wombert> WOOOOOOOOOOOT
13:50 < Wombert> HEAVEN
13:50 < Wombert> AHAHAH
13:50 < Wombert> :>
13:51 * Wombert goes download the new LOST episode
13:53 < splatch`> Wombert: wrote mail first! ;)))
13:54 < Wombert> yep
13:54 < Wombert> sure
13:54 < Wombert> I'm almost done :)
13:54 < Wombert> I gotta download the episode first anyway
13:54 < Wombert> mmmh can't wait
13:54 < Wombert> llloost
14:02 < digitarald> imho ... i like agavi2
14:02 < digitarald> ;)
14:02 < Wombert> http://pastebin.ca/191777
14:03 < Wombert> I am amazed
14:03 < Wombert> to see a designer to such a good work
14:03 < Wombert> he knows the web
14:03 < Wombert> he knows how to do it
14:03 < Wombert> I have worked with tons of designers
14:03 < Wombert> and he is the first one where the different places where orange is used actually use the exactly same color
14:03 < Wombert> stuff like that makes me happy, I swear
14:04 < Wombert> now we just need a simple (!) logo, and we're done :)
14:04 < Wombert> splatch`: it doesn't have to be a great logo! it doesn't even have to be a symbol or so
14:04 < Wombert> just a nice "Agavi" lettering or something might be sufficient, too
14:04 < digitarald> some of the requested feature are ... maybe overkill? ;)
14:04 < Wombert> I don't know what the others think!?
14:04 < Wombert> digitarald: what requested features?
14:04 < Wombert> I'll implement them myself :)
14:04 < digitarald> the weather for example ;)
14:05 < Wombert> I just wanted to ask them if it's okay if I do that
14:05 < digitarald> i don't mean overkill for the designer, overkill for the user ;)
14:05 < Wombert> splatch`: was that understandable? points 1) 2) and 3), I'll do them, if the designer agrees
14:05 < Wombert> no need for him to do anything in that regard :>
14:05 < digitarald> i dont think that javascript/template stuff can show the power of agavi
14:06 < Wombert> digitarald: it's always nice if you have something simple to play with
14:06 < Wombert> and we gotta leverage this top-down idea
14:06 < Wombert> it's brilliant
14:06 < Wombert> we can use it to show HOW different agavi is
14:06 < Wombert> it's so cool it puts the world on it's head
14:06 < Wombert> you know? :)
14:07 < Wombert> it's not about the javascript or the effect
14:07 < Wombert> it's about the _idea_
14:07 < digitarald> ok ... the gravity thing is cool
14:07 < Wombert> see, and then there's a "just in case you prefer things the normal way"
14:07 < Wombert> you click it
14:07 < Wombert> everything flips down
14:07 < digitarald> why not switch the content from left to right or something else ...
14:07 < Wombert> a popup appears and says "sure, why not? agavi doesn't lock you in. you do things the way _you_ like."
14:08 < Wombert> nah, it's good like this
14:08 < Wombert> the page, like this, sits on the left side of the browser
14:08 < Wombert> that's okay
14:08 < Wombert> right aligned content is always a bit uncool
14:08 < digitarald> not a real switch ... interactive
14:08 < Wombert> also it's a bit more difficult to implement CSS_wise etc
14:08 < Wombert> and it's harder on the eyes
14:08 < Wombert> splatch`: did you understand the email? :)
14:09 < Wombert> I'll go have a shower
14:09 < digitarald> i'm missing a footer
14:09 < digitarald> ... i'm going for hunting my foot ...
14:09 < digitarald> :D ... my english is so great today ...
14:11 < digitarald> btw. the logo could have more detail ... now its just a typo, nothing to remember
14:18 < splatch`> Wombert: yes
14:19 < splatch`> Wombert: i read it
14:19 < splatch`> one moment before
14:22 < splatch`> Wombert: kazek'll read :)
14:25 < Wombert> digitarald: the logo?
14:25 < Wombert> you mean "Agavi.org"?
14:26 < Wombert> I don't think that's the final logo :) just a placeholder
14:26 < Wombert> or is it the logo already, splatch` ?
14:26 < splatch`> Wombert: I don't think :]
14:26 < Wombert> nice :)
14:26 < Wombert> digitarald: I guess a logo wouldn't have ".org" in it, either ;)
14:27 < digitarald> ... why not, i think there are many logos out there with .org in it :)
14:28 < Wombert> yes, but our name is "Agavi", not "Agavi.org" ;)
14:29 < splatch`> Wombert: THAT ISN'T LOGO, i'll never put thats gypsy slab
14:29 < Wombert> yep I know :)
14:29 < splatch`> Wombert: that's kazek's words :]
14:29 < Wombert> haha
14:29 < Wombert> :>
14:29 < Wombert> I forgot to mention this in the email
14:29 < Wombert> and I really mean this
14:29 < Wombert> tell him he's a very talented man
14:30 < splatch`> yes, they're
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14:31 < Wombert> btw, of course there will be a "logo and design by kazek.pl" note at the bottom of the page
14:31 < Wombert> just in case you were wondering ;)
14:31 < digitarald> was there a agavi.com address some time ago? found some old email-signature-links
14:32 < Wombert> not sure
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14:36 < Wombert> splatch`: I now implemented autoloading in propel
14:36 < Wombert> which means I can look at your patch next
14:37 < splatch`> super
14:38 < digitarald> autoload in propel means a step closer to a better propel-integration in agavi ... :) ... is there a known release date for propel 1.3?
14:39 < Wombert> no
14:39 < Wombert> still some time away I guess
14:39 < Wombert> it now uses PDO internally
14:39 < Wombert> that means we need loads of testing
14:39 < digitarald> pdo ... no longer creole
14:39 < Wombert> for the runtime, yes
14:39 < Wombert> a lot faster
14:40 < Wombert> I'll experiment with a new hydration approach later that should speed up things even more
14:40 < Wombert> and then, after I also have splatch`'s patch committed, do some benchmarks and post them
14:40 < Wombert> with autoloading and PDO, 1.3 is already TWICE as fast as 1.2 for generator/tests/bookstore-test.php
14:41 < Wombert> (with APC. without APC, it's about 25 to 30% faster)
14:41 < Wombert> remember that this test loads VERY few files
14:41 < Wombert> has VERY few inclues
14:41 < Wombert> and a lot of write operations
14:41 < Wombert> i.e. real world speedups should be even higher
14:48 < splatch`> Wombert: you changed my code?
14:48 < splatch`> Do you?
14:55 < Wombert> splatch`: not yet
14:55 < Wombert> haven't looked at it much so far
14:55 < splatch`> they have bug
14:55 < splatch`> with primary key
14:55 < Wombert> but I'll have to modify it, yes, so it is compatible with the latest changes to 1.3
14:55 < Wombert> oh
14:56 < splatch`> $obj->getPrimaryKey()
14:56 < Wombert> can you send me a new version or so= :)
14:56 < splatch`> and this's index
14:56 < splatch`> in hash map
14:56 < splatch`> should be implode or sth for values
14:56 < splatch`> next - objects can return hashCode in 2.0
14:57 < splatch`> hash generated from PK
14:57 < splatch`> with crc32 function
14:57 < splatch`> they're a very fast
15:03 < splatch`> and integer indexes faster much more than strings
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17:12 < digitarald> my 2cent for the logo ... had too much time during coffee break ;)
17:12 < digitarald> http://show.digitarald.de/agavi.png
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19:57 < digitarald> anybody here?
19:58 < digitarald> Wombert: is it possible to create tickets in the agavi trac?
19:59 < raidman> I'm
19:59 < raidman> digitarald, no you can't
19:59 < digitarald> i have a ticket, a problem from a lead developer ... a friend of mine.
20:00 < raidman> anonymous users can't create ticket in agavi trac
20:00 < digitarald> he have a patch for his problem
20:00 < raidman> digitarald, you can drop it here, Wombert will be read it later
20:00 < raidman> oh
20:01 < raidman> so paste patch in pastebin and drop link here
20:01 < raidman> If you don't have Wombert's email address :)
20:05 < digitarald> ok
20:05 < digitarald> womberts email address is all over the net ;)
20:05 < raidman> heh :)
20:06 < raidman> beb
20:08 < digitarald> Ok. patch for setting the charset for the database connection via parameter. http://pastebin.ca/192066
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20:11 < digitarald> and here for propel: http://pastebin.ca/192075
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20:55 < Wombert> re
20:56 < raidman> wb
21:06 < sho[a]n_> is the creole task broken in propel 1.3?
21:06 < sho[a]n_> i get
21:06 < sho[a]n_> Fatal error: Class 'PDO' not found in /home/shoan/public_html/projects/oda/third_party/propel/generator/classes/propel/engine/database/model/PropelTypes.php on line 179
21:18 < sho[a]n_> nvm...looks like I forgot to compile pdo into php
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22:20 < raidman> hi impl
22:20 < impl> Afternoon
22:20 < raidman> you know who is nf?
22:20 < impl> nf is me
22:20 < raidman> so I was right :)
22:20 < impl> I don't ever check that client though
22:21 < raidman> but it dosn't in #mojavi any more
22:21 < impl> Oh, the box rebooted and I just forgot to rejoin
22:22 < impl> There we go :P
22:22 < raidman> okey you'r welcome to mojavi :)
22:46 < digitarald> there is an #mojavi channel ... even the channel is dead after the website disappeared ... sad
22:47 < raidman> no channel still is alive :)
22:48 < raidman> I'm in there and impl (nf)
22:48 < impl> :P
22:48 < digitarald> ;) implnf
22:51 < raidman> impl, who is channel op of #mojavi?
22:51 < impl> Probably just illusina
22:51 < impl> -ChanServ- -- Access List for [#Mojavi] --
22:51 < impl> -ChanServ- Num Level Hostmask Time since last use
22:51 < impl> -ChanServ- --- ----- -------- -------------------
22:51 < impl> -ChanServ- 1 30 illusina 13w 1d 5m 49s
22:51 < impl> -ChanServ- 2 30 feti 5w 6d 3m 22s
22:51 < impl> -ChanServ- -- End of list --
22:51 < impl> illusina and feti
22:54 < raidman> hmm
22:58 < digitarald> 13weeks ... mmh
--- Day changed Fri Oct 06 2006
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05:11 < sho[a]n_> morning
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09:31 < splatch`> oi! :)
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11:30 < shoan> morning
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12:49 < digitarald> Buenas fellows
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13:58 < splatch`> my head ...
14:03 < digitarald> whats with your head?
14:13 < splatch`> they heart me ;]
14:13 < splatch`> pain
14:15 < digitarald> ... worked till 2o'clock this night ... till 12 i had headaches ...
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14:30 < digitarald> who is using the cool ajax auf funky-blind/opacity stuff?
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14:38 < digitarald> xp update horror ... any answers?
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14:58 < digitarald> morning wombert, did u read the patch i posted yesterday?
14:58 < Wombert> no
14:58 < digitarald> -morning +hi ;)
14:59 < digitarald> when the new site is online, will user be able to post tickets?
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14:59 < Wombert> maybe
14:59 < Wombert> it doesn't have anything to do with a new site, actually
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15:00 < digitarald> my old lead developer has some ideas for agavi ... he gave me the patch i posted yesterday to post it because he could not find a way to post it on the actual site
15:01 < Wombert> hmh
15:01 < digitarald> may be there should be an note about the restart ... everybody (who is not visiting the chat) downloads 0.10 and think its up-to-date
15:01 < Wombert> yeah
15:01 < Wombert> I guess I gotta email bob and ask him if he'd be willing to transfer the domain to me
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15:01 < Wombert> so we can move site, svn etc to a server of ours
15:02 < digitarald> thats a must for the restart, imho?
15:03 < digitarald> the patch was an additional parameter for creole and propel db-integration in agavi for setting the charset
15:04 < digitarald> the utf-8 problem in mysql ... sending the set-charset query if an charset is given as parameter
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15:28 < Wombert> does the latest creole/propel support that?
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16:08 < digitarald> symfony does have an encoding parameter too in his database configuration ... following this ticket: http://www.symfony-project.com/trac/ticket/203
16:09 < digitarald> ore creole ... still not fixed: http://creole.phpdb.org/trac/ticket/13
16:10 < digitarald> and to add an filter or modify an filter just to set the charset is not my prefered solution (but the actual used)
16:11 < digitarald> btw. will there be an symfony-snippet database or something cooler, bigger? ;)
16:15 < Wombert> still not fixed? oO
16:16 < Wombert> why don't you just extend AgaviCreoleDatabase
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16:16 < Wombert> and change connect() to call parent::connect, then execute a SET CHARACTER BLAH BLAH
16:17 < Wombert> http://creole.phpdb.org/trac/changeset/48
16:17 < Wombert> ...
16:24 < Wombert> this is a wontfix at least for now
16:24 < Wombert> there are 1000 easy ways to work around it
16:25 < Wombert> extend AgaviCreoleDatabase, for instance
16:25 < Wombert> and for propel, you can overwrite PropelAutoload
16:29 < shoan> Wombert: what is the issue with propel 1.3?
16:29 < Wombert> shoan: huh?
16:30 < shoan> I tried it at home and wasn't able to generate the om
16:30 < shoan> the topic in #propel indicated that 1.3 and trunk were unstable
16:30 < shoan> so I downgraded to 1.2
16:31 < Wombert> 1.3 is experimental, yeah
16:31 < Wombert> don't use it for production yet
16:31 < Wombert> what was the problem?
16:31 < shoan> something broke at at the convert-props task
16:31 < shoan> cant recall now
16:31 < shoan> will let you know in a few hours
16:33 < Wombert> update
16:33 < Wombert> we fixed some stuff there
16:35 < digitarald> so i can set encoding for creole
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17:46 < splatch`> digitarald: we was :)
18:25 < raidman> http://website.lineone.net/~roling48/Magnificent%20Pioneers.htm
18:28 < raidman> But how can I make a jet one of those?
18:28 < raidman> http://www.instructables.com/id/EEA99AAUR3EP28744T/
18:28 < raidman> brb
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18:35 < raidman> lol ---> http://forums.programming-designs.com/viewtopic.php?id=605
18:38 < splatch`> rotfl ---> http://www.symfony-project.com/forum/index.php/t/3169/ ;)))
18:40 < splatch`> i send draft of my article to press
18:40 < splatch`> and one user (beta-tester) send me email
18:40 < splatch`> do you really need write about frameworks?
18:41 < splatch`> many people need basic
18:41 < splatch`> :|
18:47 < digitarald> :D what are basics? ... sending an mail via php? doing cool stuff with classes? clean php with mvc ... uh ... not basic
18:53 < splatch`> digitarald: I don't know, i'll wrote malice mail
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20:01 < raidman> Welcome Back FBI!
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20:23 < Wombert> splatch`: you there?
20:23 < splatch`> Wombert: no, i'm gone :)
20:23 < splatch`> Wombert: helo man, how are you?
20:23 < splatch`> *hello
20:24 < Wombert> I'd like to implement your doSelectJoin patch
20:24 < Wombert> you said the version I have has some bugs
20:24 < Wombert> I understand that these bugs occur with composite primary keys, is that right?
20:25 < Wombert> i.e. where a primary key consists of several columns
20:25 < Wombert> what do I have to change so it works?
20:25 < Wombert> and you mentioned a performance optimization, how exactly would I do that?
20:25 < Wombert> or maybe you can implement the bugfix and the performance improvement in the class you sent me last time and then upload it again ;)
20:25 < splatch`> Wombert: moment
20:26 < splatch`> does implode will good? :)
20:26 < Wombert> ?
20:27 < splatch`> getPrimaryKey returns array
20:27 < Wombert> ah okay
20:27 < splatch`> but array can't be a key
20:27 < Wombert> yeah, implode()ing that is okay
20:27 < splatch`> Wombert: line 141
20:27 < Wombert> primary keys are tuples
20:28 < Wombert> (Krotka)
20:28 < Wombert> so the order matters, so implode() is no problem
20:28 < splatch`> moment, i doing bug fix :]
20:29 < splatch`> http://phpfi.com/160899
20:29 < splatch`> that should works
20:29 < splatch`> oops
20:29 < Wombert> http://pastebin.ca/193203 is that the latest version?
20:29 < Wombert> oh
20:29 < Wombert> haha
20:29 < Wombert> :>
20:30 < Wombert> okay, I'll use your paste
20:30 < splatch`> http://phpfi.com/160900
20:30 < splatch`> bugfix for bugfix
20:30 < Wombert> okay
20:30 < v-dogg> *burp*
20:30 < Wombert> heyyy veikko what's up
20:30 < Wombert> long time no see
20:32 < v-dogg> yeah, three days of fair'ing behind
20:32 < v-dogg> one day to go
20:33 < Wombert> what fair
20:34 < v-dogg> FinnBuild (building & building services)
20:34 < Wombert> oO
20:38 * splatch` is evil
20:40 < splatch`> Wombert: works?
20:40 < Wombert> splatch`: every time I look at the design I love it even more
20:40 < Wombert> it's so nice :)
20:40 < Wombert> splatch`: still working on it
20:40 < splatch`> Wombert: yes, they're nice :)
20:40 < v-dogg> woot
20:40 < Wombert> v-dogg: did you see the new agavi website design yet?
20:41 < v-dogg> nope
20:41 < Wombert> http://kazek.pl/agavi1.png
20:41 < Wombert> http://kazek.pl/agavi2.png
20:41 < Wombert> aaaand
20:41 * Wombert goes find that
20:42 < Wombert> http://wombert.pastebin.com/801503
20:42 < splatch`> Wombert: kazek will got beer from me
20:43 < splatch`> hah, wombert.pastebin :)
20:43 < splatch`> Wombert: page doesn't work
20:43 < splatch`> loading ...
20:43 < Wombert> it's just very, very, very slow
20:43 < splatch`> i got the title!
20:44 < splatch`> Wombert: you've fantastic ideas
20:45 < splatch`> Wombert: today kazek is away, they drinkin' now :)
20:45 < Wombert> hehe :)
20:45 < Wombert> well I just pasted that so v-dogg can read it
20:45 < Wombert> no hurry :)
20:46 < Wombert> v-dogg: FYI, they'll also do a logo
20:46 < splatch`> Wombert: unfortunately kazek can't found work in capitol
20:46 < Wombert> "AGAVI.ORG" is just a placeholder
20:46 < v-dogg> with the menu moved to the top that's a nice layout
20:46 < splatch`> *andcapital
20:46 < splatch`> and they works for bad man
20:46 < v-dogg> and yes, #2 is better
20:47 < Wombert> you mean he can't find a job in warszawa?
20:47 < splatch`> yes
20:47 < Wombert> :(
20:47 < splatch`> they send CV to many companies
20:47 < Wombert> they?
20:47 < splatch`> he
20:47 < splatch`> :)
20:47 < Wombert> ah
20:47 < Wombert> :)
20:48 < splatch`> and haven't got any response
20:48 < Wombert> mmmh that sucks :(
20:48 < Wombert> I'm afraid our company is not large enough, I would offer him a job immediately otherwise
20:48 < splatch`> yes, really sucks
20:49 < splatch`> Wombert: i'll give him mail you
20:50 < splatch`> Dariusz Zielinski <kazek@cgnews.pl>
20:50 < Wombert> thanks :)
20:50 < Wombert> maybe I need his work one day
20:51 < Wombert> actually, I _might_ have something for him relatively soon
20:51 < Wombert> but no full time job :(
20:51 < Wombert> I hope he finds work quickly
20:51 < Wombert> he's a talented guy
20:52 < splatch`> Wombert: yes, i don't know why he can't found job
20:52 < splatch`> i haven't any ideas "why"
20:52 < splatch`> he works are wery good
20:53 < Wombert> how old is he?
20:53 < Wombert> does he have good education?
20:53 < splatch`> he's 20
20:53 < Wombert> I mean, did he learn to be a designer at a company?
20:53 < Wombert> or did he teach it himself?
20:53 < splatch`> no, he going to learn
20:54 < splatch`> he works from one year in big company
20:54 < splatch`> interia.pl
20:54 < splatch`> that's one from bigger portals in poland
20:55 < splatch`> Onet are first, WP.pl are second and Interia.pl are three
20:56 < splatch`> he drawing hm.. from 3, 4 years, from one he's a proffesional designer
20:57 < splatch`> alike me and php :)
20:58 < splatch`> Wombert: if you'll flown into poland we'll drink together :)
21:02 < Wombert> hehe you bet :)
21:03 < splatch`> Wombert: who we'll first go to floor? ;)))
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21:11 < Wombert> splatch`: I
21:11 < Wombert> for sure
21:15 < splatch`> ;)
21:36 < splatch`> I so tired..
21:37 < splatch`> anyone can made supper form me? :)
21:37 < splatch`> *for
23:36 < splatch`> hmm
--- Day changed Sat Oct 07 2006
04:32 < jake> I don't suppose anyone has actionsequence.png do they?
04:34 < Wombert> no :\
04:34 < Wombert> jake: will you be around "later"?
04:34 < Wombert> i.e. in 6 hrs or so
04:34 < jake> Probably
04:34 < Wombert> I might tackle the XMLRPC thing then
04:35 < Wombert> a quick question there if I way
04:35 < Wombert> may
04:35 < jake> Wombert do you know what I'm talking about? (actionsequence.png)
04:35 < jake> sure
04:35 < Wombert> this execution flow diagram thing?
04:35 < Wombert> for mojavi?
04:35 < jake> yep
04:35 < Wombert> I don't have it
04:35 < Wombert> v-dogg: might
04:35 < Wombert> or impl
04:35 < jake> I have to give a presentation next week. I'll ask them.
04:36 < Wombert> anyways... do you use structs for XMLRPC requests?
04:36 < Wombert> or are you only using SOAP
04:36 < Wombert> because by default neither seems to have "named" arguments for a method call, right?
04:36 < jake> we use SOAP and XMLRPC
04:36 < jake> they both do, actually
04:37 < Wombert> in XMLRPC, I use a <struct> with <name> and <value> then, right?
04:37 < jake> yep
04:37 < Wombert> obviously, I can't handle the regular approach without a struct and just a list of arguments for the called method
04:37 < Wombert> okay
04:37 < Wombert> and SOAP?
04:37 < jake> which I translate to be name/value pairs in agavi
04:37 < Wombert> it seems a lot more complicated
04:37 < Wombert> yeah that's what I wanted to do
04:37 < Wombert> seems a piece of cake compared to SOAP
04:38 < Wombert> I looked at some SOAP samples, and I couldn't even figure out how the called method's name is specified etc etc
04:38 < Wombert> and unfortunately, PHP doesn't ship with a SOAP extension that allows to just decode the request, like the XMLRPC extension does with xmlrpc_request_decode
04:39 < jake> Let's talk about it later. The approach I took was a little bit complex
04:39 < Wombert> okay
04:39 < Wombert> schweet
04:39 < Wombert> I'm headed to bed now
04:39 < Wombert> ah and
04:39 < Wombert> any news on the conference thing?
04:39 < Wombert> :>
04:39 < Wombert> ooooh and
04:39 < Wombert> gotta show you...
04:39 < Wombert> hah
04:39 < jake> let's see it
04:39 < Wombert> http://kazek.pl/agavi1.png and http://kazek.pl/agavi2.png
04:40 < Wombert> our new website design
04:40 < Wombert> we'll also get a nice logo
04:40 < Wombert> agavi2 is a bit nicer, obviously ;)
04:40 < Wombert> the designer is a friend of splatch`
04:40 < Wombert> I wrote him an email with thanks and some ideas I'll add to the site... http://wombert.pastebin.com/801503
04:41 < Wombert> if you have any input/suggestions in addition to what I wrote there, let me hear
04:42 < jake> Hmm. It's not what I was thinking, but it's an improvement :)
04:42 < Wombert> what were you thinking? :)
04:42 < Wombert> I must say I didn't _love_ it the first time I see it but now, every time I look at it, it's growing on me
04:42 < jake> What was that link you had sent me a while back? It was some site you really liked the design of....
04:42 < Wombert> "I saw it" of course
04:42 < Wombert> www.pradosoft.com ?
04:43 < Wombert> maybe
04:43 < Wombert> they have a nice logo
04:43 < jake> yep
04:43 < jake> I like the approach. No weird graphics, clean style, easy to read
04:43 < Wombert> yeah
04:43 < Wombert> but ours well be the same, basically
04:43 < Wombert> if you leave aside the agave plant that, for some reason, grows from top to bottom ^^
04:44 < Wombert> but it's a nice idea, I think, and it's gonna be pretty cool if we add that "fix gravity" button I described in the email
04:44 < jake> I'm not sure why, but I like the pradosoft design much more
04:44 < jake> I think I was hoping for that design, in orange :)
04:49 < Wombert> hehe
04:49 < Wombert> :)
04:54 < jake> The flower is lame, and the colors are _bright_, and with the background it reminds me of super mario brothers
04:56 < Wombert> lol :>
04:56 < Wombert> well, it's different
04:56 < Wombert> yeah I didn't lile the sky first, either
04:57 < Wombert> but it looks better than plain bright
04:57 < jake> it does
04:57 < Wombert> I was already thinking of only showing the agave plant on the start page
05:01 < jake> *shudder*
05:01 < jake> it looks like a weed
05:05 < Wombert> haha
05:05 < Wombert> you should have seen digitarald's logo "idea"
05:06 < Wombert> _that_ looked like weed
05:07 < Wombert> http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agavo
05:07 < Wombert> errrr
05:07 < Wombert> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agave
05:07 < jake> hahaha
05:08 < Wombert> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agaven
05:08 < Wombert> better photos
05:08 < Wombert> I think it's a pretty slick idea to have it grow from top to bottom
05:08 < Wombert> we can add some slogan like "so powerful it defeats gravity" or so to the title ;)
05:09 < jake> hey, it's your call. I'm just saying, I saw the design and saw a weed
05:25 < Wombert> haha
05:25 < Wombert> sure ;)
05:32 < Wombert> l8rs
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08:55 < v-dogg> jake: we have these http://trac.agavi.org/trac.cgi/wiki/UML
08:56 < v-dogg> and I have some mojavi diagram too
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09:09 < raidman> morning
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12:51 < horros> hi
12:51 < horros> v-dogg: around?
12:54 < horros> help plz kthx keke lar
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16:43 < digitarald> ah ... weekend ...
16:47 < Wombert> what's that?
17:04 < digitarald> weekend? ... heard that in the news today, during working on my degree work ... convertig all my javascript classes to moo.tools ...
17:05 < Wombert> I have no idea what you're talking about
17:05 < Wombert> what's the point of a weekend?
17:05 < Wombert> I mean, what do you do on a weekend?
17:05 < Wombert> how long does it last?
17:05 < Wombert> does it cost anything to participate?
17:06 < Wombert> is it a work thing?
17:06 < Wombert> or that other one... what's it called again...
17:06 < Wombert> ah... leisure time
17:06 < Wombert> whatever that is
17:06 < Wombert> xD
17:06 < digitarald> costs a lot ... my girlfriend is actually working ... so real weekends where a ling time ago ... but i still remember it ... i hope
17:06 < Wombert> "The weekend is a part of the week lasting one or two days in which most paid workers do not work. This is a time for leisure and recreation, and/or for religious activities. It is also a method of regaining sleep lost on homework."
17:06 < Wombert> oO
17:07 < Wombert> sweet
17:07 < digitarald> coll thing, right?
17:07 < digitarald> cool
17:07 < Wombert> I'd love to have weekends
17:07 < Wombert> or any sort of holiday (did I spell that right?)
17:07 < Wombert> :>>>
17:08 < digitarald> no ... here they say vacaciones ... next week 4 days Sevilla will be my vacaciones this year ;)
17:09 < Wombert> yeah that's about the holidays I get
17:09 < Wombert> if any
17:09 < Wombert> I just can't afford (time-wise, not money-wise) to be away for two weeks :|
17:11 < digitarald> same for me ... because of that only 4 days ... birthday. but working is cool ;) ... even at so-called weekends :D
17:11 < Wombert> it depends
17:11 < Wombert> I sometimes really realize how burned out I am
17:11 < Wombert> after a couple of weeks of 14hrs/day work
17:11 < Wombert> or if there is a deadline etc
17:12 < Wombert> that's when I'm just sitting around for days and don't get anything done
17:12 < Wombert> right now, for instance, I'm pretty fresh and motivated
17:12 < digitarald> worked till 2 o clock the last 2 days because of deadlines ...
17:12 < Wombert> but that might change any day
17:12 < Wombert> if there's a deadline, I sometimes work 24 hours nonstop
17:12 < Wombert> but that's not good
17:12 < Wombert> kills you
17:12 < Wombert> really does
17:12 < digitarald> me too ... sunny weather ... new flatscreen ... and playing javascript is always fun
17:14 < Wombert> I had a fantastic javascript article the other day
17:14 < Wombert> let me see if I can find it for you
17:16 < Wombert> http://www.digital-web.com/articles/objectifying_javascript/
17:16 < Wombert> good article, but that wasn't it
17:18 < Wombert> ah
17:18 < Wombert> there it is
17:18 < Wombert> http://www.digital-web.com/articles/scope_in_javascript/
17:18 < Wombert> read both of them
17:18 < Wombert> I knew a lot about closures and prototypes and scope already
17:18 < Wombert> but this .apply() and .call() stuff is sweet
17:18 < digitarald> bookmarked it already, but thank you ... it was linked here http://www.coryhudson.com/blog/2006/09/26/extending-dom-nodes-with-mootools/
17:18 < Wombert> javascript really, really is an awesome langauge
17:18 < Wombert> yeah
17:19 < Wombert> the second one is better anyway ;) (http://www.digital-web.com/articles/scope_in_javascript/)
17:19 < Wombert> is moo.* any good?
17:19 < Wombert> or dojo?
17:19 < digitarald> ah, the scope articel ...
17:19 < digitarald> dojo is overkill
17:19 < Wombert> I'm very used to prototype
17:19 < Wombert> it has so many good methods
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17:19 < Wombert> array.invoke()/apply()/detect()/filter()/grep() etc
17:19 < digitarald> moo.tools are great ... the best-of from base.js and prototype
17:19 < Wombert> don't ever want to code a gain without these
17:20 < digitarald> i always used prototype ...
17:20 < Wombert> and many other things... it's not so much about DOM etc but about the very basics of javascript it improves
17:20 < digitarald> decided this week to switch to moo.tools
17:20 < digitarald> try these articles and decide yourself
17:20 < digitarald> http://www.coryhudson.com/blog/2006/09/12/extending-objects-and-classes-with-mootools/
17:20 < digitarald> http://www.coryhudson.com/blog/2006/09/14/useful-utility-functions-in-mootools/
17:21 < digitarald> because of that i'm sitting now here, playing with moo.tools and converting all my prototype-based widgets to moo.tools ;)
17:22 < digitarald> tablewidget (data table with sorting, paging, inline-editing) is 60% faster
17:23 < digitarald> when script.aculo.us is an overkill (125kb to create drag&drop) ... moo.tools uses 17kb (uncompressed)
17:24 < digitarald> but p